5 New Messages
Digest #4610
1c
Re: SPORTS MEDICINE : SPORTS: INJURIES : SPORTS: OLYMPICS: In... by "Buddy A. Touchinsky, D.C." touchiba
Messages
Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:30 am (PDT) . Posted by:
"Giovanni Ciriani" gciriani
I'm quite sure there is too little energy that can be stored in an elastic
tape, but what about the belief that it could help the performance by
storing and giving back energy during the athletic movement.
Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 12:21 PM, <CoachJ1@aol.com > wrote:
> **
>
>
> Hi Linda!
>
>
>
> >If the claimed clearing out effect or promotion of healing cannot be
> proven by a study, how then would we prove it "helps" the athlete or not?
> Does
> anyone have an idea how this could be achieved or know a new study that
> may
> be doing a better job on proving or disproving the alleged effects?
>
>
> K-Tape has been discussed on other forums, like SomaSimple.
>
>
> Diane Jacobs noted the following: "Like anything else, taping effects are
> non-specific, indirect. It's completely up to the brain to establish new
> movement meaning out of altered input. Trying to prove any direct
> relationship between tape and any kind of output, e.g., lymph drainage, is
> a fool's
> errand.
> One study seems to suggest what is actually happening:
> Thibaud Thedon, Kevin Mandrick, Matthieu Foissac, Denis Mottet, Ste´phane
> Perrey.
> Degraded postural performance after muscle fatigue can be compensated by
> skin stimulation Gait Posture. 2011 Apr; 33(4):686-9
> Barrett Dorko (an ST poster from years back),had one of the more
> entertaining insights:
> "On NBC news this evening they featured the tape being used at the
> Olympics.
>
> They said the inventors claim it "supports joints" and something else
> rational that I can't quite recall. Maybe was "relieves pain."
> I'm waiting to see some of this on a dressage horse".
> Ken Jakalski
> Lisle High School
>
> Lisle, IL USA
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tape, but what about the belief that it could help the performance by
storing and giving back energy during the athletic movement.
Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 12:21 PM, <CoachJ1@aol.
> **
>
>
> Hi Linda!
>
>
>
> >If the claimed clearing out effect or promotion of healing cannot be
> proven by a study, how then would we prove it "helps" the athlete or not?
> Does
> anyone have an idea how this could be achieved or know a new study that
> may
> be doing a better job on proving or disproving the alleged effects?
>
>
> K-Tape has been discussed on other forums, like SomaSimple.
>
>
> Diane Jacobs noted the following: "Like anything else, taping effects are
> non-specific, indirect. It's completely up to the brain to establish new
> movement meaning out of altered input. Trying to prove any direct
> relationship between tape and any kind of output, e.g., lymph drainage, is
> a fool's
> errand.
> One study seems to suggest what is actually happening:
> Thibaud Thedon, Kevin Mandrick, Matthieu Foissac, Denis Mottet, Ste´phane
> Perrey.
> Degraded postural performance after muscle fatigue can be compensated by
> skin stimulation Gait Posture. 2011 Apr; 33(4):686-9
> Barrett Dorko (an ST poster from years back),had one of the more
> entertaining insights:
> "On NBC news this evening they featured the tape being used at the
> Olympics.
>
> They said the inventors claim it "supports joints" and something else
> rational that I can't quite recall. Maybe was "relieves pain."
> I'm waiting to see some of this on a dressage horse".
> Ken Jakalski
> Lisle High School
>
> Lisle, IL USA
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:30 am (PDT) . Posted by:
"deadliftdiva@comcast.net"
Hi Ken -
That's a good point, nobody taped up a jumping horse...hmm.
The claim about 'supporting joints' is a bit awkward though because of tape jobs to the entire posterior upper leg (hamstrings) and not crossing or supporting a joint - there would be the argument positive on the patellar strapping for one or ankle taping.
The joint support would also be a failed argument on the lower erectors, not crossing onto the sacrum on that one diver too.
Some folks had so much random tape on it could almost be argued that it was a supportive "suit" style of deal - some sports have pointedly removed suits and other devices as promoting too much aid to the athlete?
All good questions and we'll see how it turns out. I still do not plan to use it in my practice as I could not detect benefit after using it on myself!
The Phantom
aka Linda Schaefer, CMT/RMT, competing powerlifter
Denver, Colorado, USA
----- Original Message -----
From: CoachJ1@aol.com
To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 10:21:09 AM
Subject: Re: [Supertraining] SPORTS MEDICINE : SPORTS: INJURIES : SPORTS: OLYMPICS: In...
Hi Linda!
>If the claimed clearing out effect or promotion of healing cannot be
proven by a study, how then would we prove it "helps" the athlete or not? Does
anyone have an idea how this could be achieved or know a new study that may
be doing a better job on proving or disproving the alleged effects?
K-Tape has been discussed on other forums, like SomaSimple.
Diane Jacobs noted the following: "Like anything else, taping effects are
non-specific, indirect. It's completely up to the brain to establish new
movement meaning out of altered input. Trying to prove any direct
relationship between tape and any kind of output, e.g., lymph drainage, is a fool's
errand.
One study seems to suggest what is actually happening:
Thibaud Thedon, Kevin Mandrick, Matthieu Foissac, Denis Mottet, Ste´phane
Perrey.
Degraded postural performance after muscle fatigue can be compensated by
skin stimulation Gait Posture. 2011 Apr; 33(4):686-9
Barrett Dorko (an ST poster from years back),had one of the more
entertaining insights:
"On NBC news this evening they featured the tape being used at the
Olympics.
They said the inventors claim it "supports joints" and something else
rational that I can't quite recall. Maybe was "relieves pain."
I'm waiting to see some of this on a dressage horse".
Ken Jakalski
Lisle High School
Lisle, IL USA
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
That's a good point, nobody taped up a jumping horse...hmm.
The claim about 'supporting joints' is a bit awkward though because of tape jobs to the entire posterior upper leg (hamstrings) and not crossing or supporting a joint - there would be the argument positive on the patellar strapping for one or ankle taping.
The joint support would also be a failed argument on the lower erectors, not crossing onto the sacrum on that one diver too.
Some folks had so much random tape on it could almost be argued that it was a supportive "suit" style of deal - some sports have pointedly removed suits and other devices as promoting too much aid to the athlete?
All good questions and we'll see how it turns out. I still do not plan to use it in my practice as I could not detect benefit after using it on myself!
The Phantom
aka Linda Schaefer, CMT/RMT, competing powerlifter
Denver, Colorado, USA
----- Original Message -----
From: CoachJ1@aol.
To: Supertraining@
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 10:21:09 AM
Subject: Re: [Supertraining] SPORTS MEDICINE : SPORTS: INJURIES : SPORTS: OLYMPICS: In...
Hi Linda!
>If the claimed clearing out effect or promotion of healing cannot be
proven by a study, how then would we prove it "helps" the athlete or not? Does
anyone have an idea how this could be achieved or know a new study that may
be doing a better job on proving or disproving the alleged effects?
K-Tape has been discussed on other forums, like SomaSimple.
Diane Jacobs noted the following: "Like anything else, taping effects are
non-specific, indirect. It's completely up to the brain to establish new
movement meaning out of altered input. Trying to prove any direct
relationship between tape and any kind of output, e.g., lymph drainage, is a fool's
errand.
One study seems to suggest what is actually happening:
Thibaud Thedon, Kevin Mandrick, Matthieu Foissac, Denis Mottet, Ste´phane
Perrey.
Degraded postural performance after muscle fatigue can be compensated by
skin stimulation Gait Posture. 2011 Apr; 33(4):686-9
Barrett Dorko (an ST poster from years back),had one of the more
entertaining insights:
"On NBC news this evening they featured the tape being used at the
Olympics.
They said the inventors claim it "supports joints" and something else
rational that I can't quite recall. Maybe was "relieves pain."
I'm waiting to see some of this on a dressage horse".
Ken Jakalski
Lisle High School
Lisle, IL USA
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:19 pm (PDT) . Posted by:
"Buddy A. Touchinsky, D.C." touchiba
As a practitioner that selectively uses it on my patients and on myself,
I'll add my two cents.
I agree with the comment that it is questionable that the tape is able to
store enough energy to offer any advantage in that respect. However, I do
see a benefit it offering people more awareness of body positioning vs. not
using the tape. There is no better way to promote hip hinge vs. lumbar
flexion upon lifting and bending them taping the lumbar spine. The person
experience a pulling on the skin with the tape that they simply do not
experience without the tape. Additionally, it does help with lymphatic
draining therefore potentially reducing irritation/inflammation/pain at an
area that is injured. I was skeptical of this, but a friend of mine rolled
an ankle recently. It was severe enough that the entire region turned
black and blue. I taped the area and two days later he returned. We were
surprised to see that when we removed the tape, the area under the tape was
normal. No bruising whatsoever. Around the tape, it was still as black and
blue as it was 2 days prior. So, it definitely improved lymph drainage.
So, I think it only "supports the joint" in that it can affect the way a
joint is positioned promoting a better movement pattern. And in terms of
pain relief, through the promotion of lymphatic drainage it can remove
inflammatory chemicals an excess fluid from an area.
Personally, I know it helps keep me in a better position during oly and
powerlifting maneuvers. Does that allow me to lift more weight? I don't
know, but I know it allows me to lift properly therefore reducing risk of
injury.
Thanks,
Buddy
-----------
Buddy A. Touchinsky, D.C.
www.drtouchinsky.com
On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 12:38 PM, <deadliftdiva@comcast.net > wrote:
> **
>
>
> Hi Ken -
>
> That's a good point, nobody taped up a jumping horse...hmm.
>
> The claim about 'supporting joints' is a bit awkward though because of
> tape jobs to the entire posterior upper leg (hamstrings) and not crossing
> or supporting a joint - there would be the argument positive on the
> patellar strapping for one or ankle taping.
>
> The joint support would also be a failed argument on the lower erectors,
> not crossing onto the sacrum on that one diver too.
>
> Some folks had so much random tape on it could almost be argued that it
> was a supportive "suit" style of deal - some sports have pointedly removed
> suits and other devices as promoting too much aid to the athlete?
>
> All good questions and we'll see how it turns out. I still do not plan to
> use it in my practice as I could not detect benefit after using it on
> myself!
>
> The Phantom
> aka Linda Schaefer, CMT/RMT, competing powerlifter
> Denver, Colorado, USA
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: CoachJ1@aol.com
> To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 10:21:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [Supertraining] SPORTS MEDICINE : SPORTS: INJURIES : SPORTS:
> OLYMPICS: In...
>
> Hi Linda!
>
> >If the claimed clearing out effect or promotion of healing cannot be
> proven by a study, how then would we prove it "helps" the athlete or not?
> Does
> anyone have an idea how this could be achieved or know a new study that
> may
> be doing a better job on proving or disproving the alleged effects?
>
> K-Tape has been discussed on other forums, like SomaSimple.
>
> Diane Jacobs noted the following: "Like anything else, taping effects are
> non-specific, indirect. It's completely up to the brain to establish new
> movement meaning out of altered input. Trying to prove any direct
> relationship between tape and any kind of output, e.g., lymph drainage, is
> a fool's
> errand.
> One study seems to suggest what is actually happening:
> Thibaud Thedon, Kevin Mandrick, Matthieu Foissac, Denis Mottet, Ste´phane
> Perrey.
> Degraded postural performance after muscle fatigue can be compensated by
> skin stimulation Gait Posture. 2011 Apr; 33(4):686-9
> Barrett Dorko (an ST poster from years back),had one of the more
> entertaining insights:
> "On NBC news this evening they featured the tape being used at the
> Olympics.
>
> They said the inventors claim it "supports joints" and something else
> rational that I can't quite recall. Maybe was "relieves pain."
> I'm waiting to see some of this on a dressage horse".
> Ken Jakalski
> Lisle High School
>
> Lisle, IL USA
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'll add my two cents.
I agree with the comment that it is questionable that the tape is able to
store enough energy to offer any advantage in that respect. However, I do
see a benefit it offering people more awareness of body positioning vs. not
using the tape. There is no better way to promote hip hinge vs. lumbar
flexion upon lifting and bending them taping the lumbar spine. The person
experience a pulling on the skin with the tape that they simply do not
experience without the tape. Additionally, it does help with lymphatic
draining therefore potentially reducing irritation/inflamma
area that is injured. I was skeptical of this, but a friend of mine rolled
an ankle recently. It was severe enough that the entire region turned
black and blue. I taped the area and two days later he returned. We were
surprised to see that when we removed the tape, the area under the tape was
normal. No bruising whatsoever. Around the tape, it was still as black and
blue as it was 2 days prior. So, it definitely improved lymph drainage.
So, I think it only "supports the joint" in that it can affect the way a
joint is positioned promoting a better movement pattern. And in terms of
pain relief, through the promotion of lymphatic drainage it can remove
inflammatory chemicals an excess fluid from an area.
Personally, I know it helps keep me in a better position during oly and
powerlifting maneuvers. Does that allow me to lift more weight? I don't
know, but I know it allows me to lift properly therefore reducing risk of
injury.
Thanks,
Buddy
-----------
Buddy A. Touchinsky, D.C.
www.drtouchinsky.
On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 12:38 PM, <deadliftdiva@
> **
>
>
> Hi Ken -
>
> That's a good point, nobody taped up a jumping horse...hmm.
>
> The claim about 'supporting joints' is a bit awkward though because of
> tape jobs to the entire posterior upper leg (hamstrings) and not crossing
> or supporting a joint - there would be the argument positive on the
> patellar strapping for one or ankle taping.
>
> The joint support would also be a failed argument on the lower erectors,
> not crossing onto the sacrum on that one diver too.
>
> Some folks had so much random tape on it could almost be argued that it
> was a supportive "suit" style of deal - some sports have pointedly removed
> suits and other devices as promoting too much aid to the athlete?
>
> All good questions and we'll see how it turns out. I still do not plan to
> use it in my practice as I could not detect benefit after using it on
> myself!
>
> The Phantom
> aka Linda Schaefer, CMT/RMT, competing powerlifter
> Denver, Colorado, USA
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: CoachJ1@aol.
> To: Supertraining@
> Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 10:21:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [Supertraining] SPORTS MEDICINE : SPORTS: INJURIES : SPORTS:
> OLYMPICS: In...
>
> Hi Linda!
>
> >If the claimed clearing out effect or promotion of healing cannot be
> proven by a study, how then would we prove it "helps" the athlete or not?
> Does
> anyone have an idea how this could be achieved or know a new study that
> may
> be doing a better job on proving or disproving the alleged effects?
>
> K-Tape has been discussed on other forums, like SomaSimple.
>
> Diane Jacobs noted the following: "Like anything else, taping effects are
> non-specific, indirect. It's completely up to the brain to establish new
> movement meaning out of altered input. Trying to prove any direct
> relationship between tape and any kind of output, e.g., lymph drainage, is
> a fool's
> errand.
> One study seems to suggest what is actually happening:
> Thibaud Thedon, Kevin Mandrick, Matthieu Foissac, Denis Mottet, Ste´phane
> Perrey.
> Degraded postural performance after muscle fatigue can be compensated by
> skin stimulation Gait Posture. 2011 Apr; 33(4):686-9
> Barrett Dorko (an ST poster from years back),had one of the more
> entertaining insights:
> "On NBC news this evening they featured the tape being used at the
> Olympics.
>
> They said the inventors claim it "supports joints" and something else
> rational that I can't quite recall. Maybe was "relieves pain."
> I'm waiting to see some of this on a dressage horse".
> Ken Jakalski
> Lisle High School
>
> Lisle, IL USA
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:20 pm (PDT) . Posted by:
"JRTELLE@AOL.COM"
Greetings,
Black athletespeed.
I just finished replying to a post on T nation about black sprinters. Has anyone else read about this?
I don't know how anyone couldeven anecdotally believe they(the ones that do) do not have superior speed genetics. I recently read a great article which added the following fact!. Not only do black athletes (many) havegreater proportions of fast twitch fibers but -- GET THIS -- THEY HAVE WORSEMECHANICAL (SKELETAL LEVERAGE) ADVANTAGE. AHH HHHMM that is -- THEIR MOMENTS ARE SHORTER!!!!! Shorter moments (worse mechanical leverage factors) requires greater #'s of fast twitch fibers (greater cross section size) to overcome the mechanical disadvantages. And when this manifests -- faster skeletal arcs!
The evolutionary result - big magnificent muscles to drive the poor!! mechanical factors. Whether or not this transfers to strength-low power (power-lifting)
Jerry Telle
lakewood CO USA
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:27 am (PDT) . Posted by:
"Giovanni Ciriani" gciriani
Do you have the link for the post please?
Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 8:15 PM, <JRTELLE@aol.com > wrote:
> **
>
>
>
>
> Greetings,
> Black athletespeed.
> I just finished replying to a post on T nation about black sprinters. Has
> anyone else read about this?
> I don't know how anyone couldeven anecdotally believe they(the ones that
> do) do not have superior speed genetics. I recently read a great article
> which added the following fact!. Not only do black athletes (many)
> havegreater proportions of fast twitch fibers but -- GET THIS -- THEY HAVE
> WORSEMECHANICAL (SKELETAL LEVERAGE) ADVANTAGE. AHH HHHMM that is -- THEIR
> MOMENTS ARE SHORTER!!!!! Shorter moments (worse mechanical leverage
> factors) requires greater #'s of fast twitch fibers (greater cross section
> size) to overcome the mechanical disadvantages. And when this manifests --
> faster skeletal arcs!
> The evolutionary result - big magnificent muscles to drive the poor!!
> mechanical factors. Whether or not this transfers to strength-low power
> (power-lifting)or strength-high power (Olympic lifting) is unresolved. Some
> really good powerlifters have been black!
> Jerry Telle
> lakewood CO USA
>
>
>
> .
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 8:15 PM, <JRTELLE@aol.
> **
>
>
>
>
> Greetings,
> Black athletespeed.
> I just finished replying to a post on T nation about black sprinters. Has
> anyone else read about this?
> I don't know how anyone couldeven anecdotally believe they(the ones that
> do) do not have superior speed genetics. I recently read a great article
> which added the following fact!. Not only do black athletes (many)
> havegreater proportions of fast twitch fibers but -- GET THIS -- THEY HAVE
> WORSEMECHANICAL (SKELETAL LEVERAGE) ADVANTAGE. AHH HHHMM that is -- THEIR
> MOMENTS ARE SHORTER!!!!! Shorter moments (worse mechanical leverage
> factors) requires greater #'s of fast twitch fibers (greater cross section
> size) to overcome the mechanical disadvantages. And when this manifests --
> faster skeletal arcs!
> The evolutionary result - big magnificent muscles to drive the poor!!
> mechanical factors. Whether or not this transfers to strength-low power
> (power-lifting)
> really good powerlifters have been black!
> Jerry Telle
> lakewood CO USA
>
>
>
> .
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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