Messages In This Digest (2 Messages)
- 1a.
- Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy From: deadliftdiva@comcast.net
- 1b.
- Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy From: Ralph Giarnella
Messages
- 1a.
-
Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy
Posted by: "deadliftdiva@comcast.net" deadliftdiva@comcast.net
Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:31 am (PDT)
I'm going to jump in here with one point that I think has bearing on the whole question: When we measure lean mass, we are not precise. We cannot be. What we get is some guess based on measurements which varies and can be misleading - and I recall Mel's comment long ago that the only truly accurate measure was "autopsy". Few would desire to have their lean mass evaluated this way during a growth phase in training, so that's clearly out :) .
With the known variance in measuring methods (and here I recall James Krieger's good article on measuring that he thoughtfully shared some time ago with this group), my thinking is that there is a considerable margin of guessing that makes it possible to overestimate how much lean mass has been gained by an individual over time. I myself over the years have experienced wildly ranging measurements by folks who were said to be expert in such things - considering that the measurement of one's bodyfat subcutaneously or measurements to estimate a guess at overall bodyfat including a visceral estimate would have bearing on a presumed gain in lean mass by way of deducting the presumed bodyfat on board...
I also once handed Mel a copy of a book that suggested you could 'squat for 6 weeks and gain 20 pounds of lean hard muscle' and the response was that it was entertaining but unlikely to be accurate... Thankfully sq never had that effect on me personally or I'd have required more new wardrobes than I have been through personally over the years here as a competing powerlifter!
So if we consider that measuring the bodyfat an individual has on board is still somewhat less effective than we would like, how then can we be sure of lean gains that would be based on our best guess of the fat to lean ratio of a person? Would not a "lean muscle gain" not be entirely muscle also, but the bones themselves responding to the increased loads as well?
Interesting topic, back to reading. :)
The Phantom
aka Linda Schaefer, CMT/RMT, competing powerlifter
Denver, Colorado, USA
----- Original Message -----
From: "kendaiganoneill" <kayoneill@earthlink.net >
To: Supertraining@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 5:54:05 PM
Subject: [Supertraining] Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy
Krista's reports of 25-44 lbs of muscle gain within a year for life long ectomorphs.
I will dissent, however, on the notion that 20-30 lbs of muscle gain in as little as three months are hype. Back from the 1930s into the early 60s many a trainee reported 20 or more pounds increase in manly muscle over a three month period by means of specializing in 5 sets of 20 reps of breathing squats, some adding the Hise shrug. Thrice weekly, consuming nutrient dense whole foods and the sole protein supplement of that bygone era: milk.
Breathing squats are especially demanding, certainly no fun save for Masochists. With each set, one breath between reps 1-5, then 2 deep breaths for reps 6-10, three deep breaths for reps 11-15, and - you guessed it - four deep breaths between reps 16-20. The immediately onto a picnic bench for sets of 20 reps, very light weight dumbbell flyes to expand the rib cage for a big chest.
These days I'll defer to the exciting new work coming out of McMaster University comparing 1 set of 8-10 1 RM to failure vs 3 sets of 8-10 to failure 80% 1 RM vs 3 sets of 30 reps to failure with 30% 1 RM. Adding volume at 80% and 30% produced essentially equal hypertrophy, both significantly greater than 1 set to failure (a failed idea).
In my personal experience and that of training others, hitting significant annual hypertrophy is far more easily facilitated when rep schemes, cadence or tempo, stage sets, drop sets, using 30-80% 1 RM are all intelligently and strategically applied to one end: avoiding plateaus, instead sustainable anabolism.
--- In Supertraining@yahoogroups. , Krista Scott-Dixon <kristascottdixon@com ...> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 4:13 PM, Anthony Pitruzzello
> <tonypit45@...> wrote:
> > Hello Everyone,
> >
> > I recently posted a question about rate of hypertrophy – basically, what are
> > the optimal realistic results a person can expect, vs. the endless claims in
> > the muscle mags, e.g., "Gain 20-30 pounds of lean muscle mass in six
> > weeks!!!" I compared the responses with some other data, and I thought I
> > would share it with the group.
> >
>
> I work with John Berardi at Precision Nutrition, which runs a
> muscle-gaining Scrawny to Brawny program. It's a one-year program that
> focuses on step-by-step habit acquisition and entrainment, like our
> other fat-loss program Lean Eating. We run a contest that awards money
> to top finishers -- people who dramatically transform their bodies.
>
> Looking at our recent 12-month cohorts, our top finalists put on
> between 25-44 lbs in a year. These are ectomorphs who are "lifetime
> scrawnies", so they gain mass relatively slowly -- some made notable
> transformations even with relatively less muscle gain, because small
> amounts of mass make a big difference on a shorter/skinnier frame.
> This is with a highly structured eating and training program, a coach,
> and daily check-ins (lessons and habits). All material is
> science/research-based as you might expect from JB and PN.
>
> Interestingly, our 6-month program was not as dissimilar as you would
> expect -- it doesn't seem to be a linear scale.
>
> Here are finalists from our early, 6-month program:
> http://www.precisionnutrition. com/s2b-winners- 2010
>
> Here are finalists from our 12-month program that begin in May 2011.
> http://www.scrawnytobrawny.com/ may-2011- finalists
>
> Krista
> Toronto, ON
>
> --------------------
> Krista Scott-Dixon, PhD
> Lean Eating Program Director
> PrecisionNutrition.com
> krista@...
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
- 1b.
-
Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy
Posted by: "Ralph Giarnella" ragiarn@yahoo.com ragiarn
Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:22 pm (PDT)
Thank you to every one has contributed to this discussion. I find it very useful. I keep hearing individuals stating that the reason they have not lost as much weight as they would like is because that some of their fat turned into muscle, this after only a few weeks of exercise.
The skin fold caliper measuring is extremely imprecise and is based on formulae that make certain assumptions. The measurements can be very imprecise. Too much pressure on the calipers will give loser skin fold thickness. Skin fold thickness does not account for intramuscular or intrabdominal (visceral fat). An lastly these measurements do not account for the most abundant element in the body namely water. The assumption is always that muscle accounts for any change in fat free mass without accounting for shifts in fluid mass.
Other than autopsy the real gold standard is underwater weighing but even that is subject to calculations.
Perhaps the best study for my purposes, since I am generally not dealing with weight lifter, is the study looking at high school and college athletes post by one of the earlier posters.
Ralph Giarnella MD
Southington Ct. USA
_____________________ _________ __
From: "deadliftdiva@comcast.net " <deadliftdiva@comcast.net >
To: Supertraining@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 11:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy
I'm going to jump in here with one point that I think has bearing on the whole question: When we measure lean mass, we are not precise. We cannot be. What we get is some guess based on measurements which varies and can be misleading - and I recall Mel's comment long ago that the only truly accurate measure was "autopsy". Few would desire to have their lean mass evaluated this way during a growth phase in training, so that's clearly out :) .
With the known variance in measuring methods (and here I recall James Krieger's good article on measuring that he thoughtfully shared some time ago with this group), my thinking is that there is a considerable margin of guessing that makes it possible to overestimate how much lean mass has been gained by an individual over time. I myself over the years have experienced wildly ranging measurements by folks who were said to be expert in such things - considering that the measurement of one's bodyfat subcutaneously or measurements to estimate a guess at overall bodyfat including a visceral estimate would have bearing on a presumed gain in lean mass by way of deducting the presumed bodyfat on board...
I also once handed Mel a copy of a book that suggested you could 'squat for 6 weeks and gain 20 pounds of lean hard muscle' and the response was that it was entertaining but unlikely to be accurate... Thankfully sq never had that effect on me personally or I'd have required more new wardrobes than I have been through personally over the years here as a competing powerlifter!
So if we consider that measuring the bodyfat an individual has on board is still somewhat less effective than we would like, how then can we be sure of lean gains that would be based on our best guess of the fat to lean ratio of a person? Would not a "lean muscle gain" not be entirely muscle also, but the bones themselves responding to the increased loads as well?
Interesting topic, back to reading. :)
The Phantom
aka Linda Schaefer, CMT/RMT, competing powerlifter
Denver, Colorado, USA
----- Original Message -----
From: "kendaiganoneill" <kayoneill@earthlink.net >
To: Supertraining@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 5:54:05 PM
Subject: [Supertraining] Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy
Krista's reports of 25-44 lbs of muscle gain within a year for life long ectomorphs.
I will dissent, however, on the notion that 20-30 lbs of muscle gain in as little as three months are hype. Back from the 1930s into the early 60s many a trainee reported 20 or more pounds increase in manly muscle over a three month period by means of specializing in 5 sets of 20 reps of breathing squats, some adding the Hise shrug. Thrice weekly, consuming nutrient dense whole foods and the sole protein supplement of that bygone era: milk.
Breathing squats are especially demanding, certainly no fun save for Masochists. With each set, one breath between reps 1-5, then 2 deep breaths for reps 6-10, three deep breaths for reps 11-15, and - you guessed it - four deep breaths between reps 16-20. The immediately onto a picnic bench for sets of 20 reps, very light weight dumbbell flyes to expand the rib cage for a big chest.
These days I'll defer to the exciting new work coming out of McMaster University comparing 1 set of 8-10 1 RM to failure vs 3 sets of 8-10 to failure 80% 1 RM vs 3 sets of 30 reps to failure with 30% 1 RM. Adding volume at 80% and 30% produced essentially equal hypertrophy, both significantly greater than 1 set to failure (a failed idea).
In my personal experience and that of training others, hitting significant annual hypertrophy is far more easily facilitated when rep schemes, cadence or tempo, stage sets, drop sets, using 30-80% 1 RM are all intelligently and strategically applied to one end: avoiding plateaus, instead sustainable anabolism.
--- In Supertraining@yahoogroups. , Krista Scott-Dixon <kristascottdixon@com ...> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 4:13 PM, Anthony Pitruzzello
> <tonypit45@...> wrote:
> > Hello Everyone,
> >
> > I recently posted a question about rate of hypertrophy – basically, what are
> > the optimal realistic results a person can expect, vs. the endless claims in
> > the muscle mags, e.g., "Gain 20-30 pounds of lean muscle mass in six
> > weeks!!!" I compared the responses with some other data, and I thought I
> > would share it with the group.
> >
>
> I work with John Berardi at Precision Nutrition, which runs a
> muscle-gaining Scrawny to Brawny program. It's a one-year program that
> focuses on step-by-step habit acquisition and entrainment, like our
> other fat-loss program Lean Eating. We run a contest that awards money
> to top finishers -- people who dramatically transform their bodies.
>
> Looking at our recent 12-month cohorts, our top finalists put on
> between 25-44 lbs in a year. These are ectomorphs who are "lifetime
> scrawnies", so they gain mass relatively slowly -- some made notable
> transformations even with relatively less muscle gain, because small
> amounts of mass make a big difference on a shorter/skinnier frame.
> This is with a highly structured eating and training program, a coach,
> and daily check-ins (lessons and habits). All material is
> science/research-based as you might expect from JB and PN.
>
> Interestingly, our 6-month program was not as dissimilar as you would
> expect -- it doesn't seem to be a linear scale.
>
> Here are finalists from our early, 6-month program:
> http://www.precisionnutrition. com/s2b-winners- 2010
>
> Here are finalists from our 12-month program that begin in May 2011.
> http://www.scrawnytobrawny.com/ may-2011- finalists
>
> Krista
> Toronto, ON
>
> --------------------
> Krista Scott-Dixon, PhD
> Lean Eating Program Director
> PrecisionNutrition.com
> krista@...
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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