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Digest #4624
Message
Tue Nov 6, 2012 5:52 am (PST) . Posted by:
"Phil Caraher" hefenweis
It is my understanding the motor units in postural muscles will share the
burden so that no one unit is always active which would prevent fatigue and
maintain posture.
Phil Caraher, DPT, MS, CSCS, PES, CES
Physical Therapist
Chapel Hill, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Supertraining@yahoogroups.com ]
On Behalf Of Giovanni Ciriani
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 2:17 PM
To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
I do not understand the concept of fatigueing a fiber to train it. Mt
understanding is that fibers adapt (train) because there is microdamage,
which probably can happen even without fatigue to occur. In addition I
thought that 100% type I fibers would be able to produce a certain force ad
infinitum, such as postural fibers. If that was not the case then one would
slump down on a desk after a few minutes because the muscles of the back
were fatigued.
Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 2:02 AM, <JRTELLE@aol.com > wrote:
> **
>
>
> Greetings all.
>
> I received this message from an obviously experienced trainer.
>
> Jerry:
>
> Iread in the summer issue of MILO that you determined that a Type 1
> slow twitchmuscle fiber required a time under tension of 90 to 240
> seconds to fatigue thatparticular fiber. From that I deduce that since
> a muscle--say a leg or ashoulder one isn't one-hundred percent fast or
> slow twitch, to adequatelyfatigue and build that muscle both types of
> fibers need to be exercised. Ifthis is so, then I can only see a
> couple of possibilities to attack the slowtwitch; lighter weight and
higher reps or super slow reps.
> Withsuper slow in order to reach the 90 second threshold would
> probably necessitatea lower weight as well. Am I barking up the wrong
> tree? If not, what are yoursuggestions for incorporating fatiguing
> both types of fibers in a singleworkout?
>
> Ithank you for your time and effort in responding to this request.
>
> I responded.
>
> Right tree, rightbark -- maybe,
>
> I havephilosophically fought with these slow twitchers forever. At one
> point I wasdoing drop sets starting with a IIb weight, then 2 - IIa
> drop sets, then superslow up - two 120+ seconds. SEEMED to work. This
> I termed "top down" training!Recent research seems to indicate that
> exertion should last 50 - 55 seconds(for type II's???) then cessation!
>
> The type onestheoretically via the "size" principle are worked the
> entire 55seconds also which is a pretty good stimulation -- maybe?
>
> Another that Ithink maybe better is to work the type II's on one day
> and 3 days later theI's. The ones protocol being starting with a 30%
> of 1 RM Slow moes at 4(to8)2(or more)40. that's 4240 or 4 down 2 at
> the isometric bottom getting a superstretch - 4 up - 0 at top
> isometric position. Here is 1
> protocol:
>
> 1. 6240 to failure
> 2. thenimmediately after failure 40X+0 the X+ being an explosive
> positive up and 4down and no stop at bottom. The fascinating thing
> being the explosive strengthleft after total slow moe failure. Should
> be able to get
> 2 maybe 3 xtra reps -very painful.
> 3. 1 drop set ofsame protocol.
> This should getyou to 90+ seconds which may be good enough? I have
> done drops to very lowloads -- so low that failure could not be
> attained - it would seem at these lowloads certain slow (or fast
> fibers) rest then contribute as the others nowrest??
>
> This I termed "bottomup" training.
>
> And finally I havetried Eccentric sets and drops to near total fiber
> failure at very low loads-- a very taxingtraining protocol which
> should be gradually built up to.
>
> I, somewhere, haveresearch on this matter which will try to find and send!
>
> Thanx for thequestion. It always helps me to write out my current
> beliefs as it clarifiessame and most often leads to new ideas.
>
> I should have added. When concentric failure is reached do slow moe
> bottom of movement -- end of eccentric, isometric, start of concentric
partials.
> Fiber tension is always greatest there (think tension-force
> phenomenon), lasts the longest as fatigue accumulates(my research and
> highly respected researchers Komi and Hakkinen from Finland) and is a
> great highest possible tension set extender not wasting valuable
> mental energy on uselessly low, detrimental or non existent fiber tensions
attempting full ROM movements.
> Do partials to complete failure that is less and less movement to zero
> -- but not max intensity (totally psyched out -- competition effort)!
>
> Jerry
>
> Any remarks? -- Negative remarks welcomed!
>
> Jerry Telle
> lakewood CO USA
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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burden so that no one unit is always active which would prevent fatigue and
maintain posture.
Phil Caraher, DPT, MS, CSCS, PES, CES
Physical Therapist
Chapel Hill, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: Supertraining@
On Behalf Of Giovanni Ciriani
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 2:17 PM
To: Supertraining@
Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
I do not understand the concept of fatigueing a fiber to train it. Mt
understanding is that fibers adapt (train) because there is microdamage,
which probably can happen even without fatigue to occur. In addition I
thought that 100% type I fibers would be able to produce a certain force ad
infinitum, such as postural fibers. If that was not the case then one would
slump down on a desk after a few minutes because the muscles of the back
were fatigued.
Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 2:02 AM, <JRTELLE@aol.
> **
>
>
> Greetings all.
>
> I received this message from an obviously experienced trainer.
>
> Jerry:
>
> Iread in the summer issue of MILO that you determined that a Type 1
> slow twitchmuscle fiber required a time under tension of 90 to 240
> seconds to fatigue thatparticular fiber. From that I deduce that since
> a muscle--say a leg or ashoulder one isn't one-hundred percent fast or
> slow twitch, to adequatelyfatigue and build that muscle both types of
> fibers need to be exercised. Ifthis is so, then I can only see a
> couple of possibilities to attack the slowtwitch; lighter weight and
higher reps or super slow reps.
> Withsuper slow in order to reach the 90 second threshold would
> probably necessitatea lower weight as well. Am I barking up the wrong
> tree? If not, what are yoursuggestions for incorporating fatiguing
> both types of fibers in a singleworkout?
>
> Ithank you for your time and effort in responding to this request.
>
> I responded.
>
> Right tree, rightbark -- maybe,
>
> I havephilosophically fought with these slow twitchers forever. At one
> point I wasdoing drop sets starting with a IIb weight, then 2 - IIa
> drop sets, then superslow up - two 120+ seconds. SEEMED to work. This
> I termed "top down" training!Recent research seems to indicate that
> exertion should last 50 - 55 seconds(for type II's???) then cessation!
>
> The type onestheoretically via the "size" principle are worked the
> entire 55seconds also which is a pretty good stimulation -- maybe?
>
> Another that Ithink maybe better is to work the type II's on one day
> and 3 days later theI's. The ones protocol being starting with a 30%
> of 1 RM Slow moes at 4(to8)2(or more)40. that's 4240 or 4 down 2 at
> the isometric bottom getting a superstretch - 4 up - 0 at top
> isometric position. Here is 1
> protocol:
>
> 1. 6240 to failure
> 2. thenimmediately after failure 40X+0 the X+ being an explosive
> positive up and 4down and no stop at bottom. The fascinating thing
> being the explosive strengthleft after total slow moe failure. Should
> be able to get
> 2 maybe 3 xtra reps -very painful.
> 3. 1 drop set ofsame protocol.
> This should getyou to 90+ seconds which may be good enough? I have
> done drops to very lowloads -- so low that failure could not be
> attained - it would seem at these lowloads certain slow (or fast
> fibers) rest then contribute as the others nowrest??
>
> This I termed "bottomup" training.
>
> And finally I havetried Eccentric sets and drops to near total fiber
> failure at very low loads-- a very taxingtraining protocol which
> should be gradually built up to.
>
> I, somewhere, haveresearch on this matter which will try to find and send!
>
> Thanx for thequestion. It always helps me to write out my current
> beliefs as it clarifiessame and most often leads to new ideas.
>
> I should have added. When concentric failure is reached do slow moe
> bottom of movement -- end of eccentric, isometric, start of concentric
partials.
> Fiber tension is always greatest there (think tension-force
> phenomenon), lasts the longest as fatigue accumulates(
> highly respected researchers Komi and Hakkinen from Finland) and is a
> great highest possible tension set extender not wasting valuable
> mental energy on uselessly low, detrimental or non existent fiber tensions
attempting full ROM movements.
> Do partials to complete failure that is less and less movement to zero
> -- but not max intensity (totally psyched out -- competition effort)!
>
> Jerry
>
> Any remarks? -- Negative remarks welcomed!
>
> Jerry Telle
> lakewood CO USA
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------
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