3 New Messages
Digest #4625
Messages
Tue Nov 6, 2012 10:27 am (PST) . Posted by:
"Giovanni Ciriani" gciriani
Phil,
I think what you are referring to is recruitment level which, no matter
what the level of force developed is, will cause some fibers to be
recruited close to 100% and others (faster fibers) to be recruited at a
much lower percentage.
The fibers recruited at much lower level will alternate (in a so-to-speak
round-robin fashion). However, because of their metabolic characteristics,
slow-twitch fibers will be able to maintain their effort for a long time.
You can sort of understand it from the picture at this shortcut
http://bit.ly/Wv2uaD
which is taken from
Enoka R. *Neuromechanics of human movement*. 4. ed. Champaign IL [u.a.]:
Human Kinetics; 2008.
The graph is in two parts, and kind of involved. However, you can get the
gist that, as recruitment increases the number of muscle fibers involved
increases, as well as their rate-coding (frequency of the
neuro-muscular frequency of impulses). The random ripple in the graph
denotes the fact that, as some muscle fibers are activated others are
dropped, and therefore the increase is messy.
Interesting is the following example anybody can try (learned in an
electrical muscle stimulation workshop). You can hear the frequency at
which muscle fibers fire if you plug both of your ears with your fingers.
The low volume rumble you hear is the frequency at which the muscle fibers
of your arm are firing. Because the firing has some noise in it and is
discrete in nature, you can hear the varying pressure in your ear. Try to
increase the pressure exercised by the fingers and the frequency goes up.
Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 4:16 PM, Phil Caraher <pcaraher1@nc.rr.com > wrote:
> **
>
>
> It is my understanding the motor units in postural muscles will share the
> burden so that no one unit is always active which would prevent fatigue and
> maintain posture.
>
> Phil Caraher, DPT, MS, CSCS, PES, CES
> Physical Therapist
> Chapel Hill, NC
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Supertraining@yahoogroups.com ]
> On Behalf Of Giovanni Ciriani
> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 2:17 PM
> To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
>
> I do not understand the concept of fatigueing a fiber to train it. Mt
> understanding is that fibers adapt (train) because there is microdamage,
> which probably can happen even without fatigue to occur. In addition I
> thought that 100% type I fibers would be able to produce a certain force ad
> infinitum, such as postural fibers. If that was not the case then one would
> slump down on a desk after a few minutes because the muscles of the back
> were fatigued.
>
> Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
>
> On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 2:02 AM, <JRTELLE@aol.com > wrote:
>
> > **
>
> >
> >
> > Greetings all.
> >
> > I received this message from an obviously experienced trainer.
> >
> > Jerry:
> >
> > Iread in the summer issue of MILO that you determined that a Type 1
> > slow twitchmuscle fiber required a time under tension of 90 to 240
> > seconds to fatigue thatparticular fiber. From that I deduce that since
> > a muscle--say a leg or ashoulder one isn't one-hundred percent fast or
> > slow twitch, to adequatelyfatigue and build that muscle both types of
> > fibers need to be exercised. Ifthis is so, then I can only see a
> > couple of possibilities to attack the slowtwitch; lighter weight and
> higher reps or super slow reps.
> > Withsuper slow in order to reach the 90 second threshold would
> > probably necessitatea lower weight as well. Am I barking up the wrong
> > tree? If not, what are yoursuggestions for incorporating fatiguing
> > both types of fibers in a singleworkout?
> >
> > Ithank you for your time and effort in responding to this request.
> >
> > I responded.
> >
> > Right tree, rightbark -- maybe,
> >
> > I havephilosophically fought with these slow twitchers forever. At one
> > point I wasdoing drop sets starting with a IIb weight, then 2 - IIa
> > drop sets, then superslow up - two 120+ seconds. SEEMED to work. This
> > I termed "top down" training!Recent research seems to indicate that
> > exertion should last 50 - 55 seconds(for type II's???) then cessation!
> >
> > The type onestheoretically via the "size" principle are worked the
> > entire 55seconds also which is a pretty good stimulation -- maybe?
> >
> > Another that Ithink maybe better is to work the type II's on one day
> > and 3 days later theI's. The ones protocol being starting with a 30%
> > of 1 RM Slow moes at 4(to8)2(or more)40. that's 4240 or 4 down 2 at
> > the isometric bottom getting a superstretch - 4 up - 0 at top
> > isometric position. Here is 1
> > protocol:
> >
> > 1. 6240 to failure
> > 2. thenimmediately after failure 40X+0 the X+ being an explosive
> > positive up and 4down and no stop at bottom. The fascinating thing
> > being the explosive strengthleft after total slow moe failure. Should
> > be able to get
> > 2 maybe 3 xtra reps -very painful.
> > 3. 1 drop set ofsame protocol.
> > This should getyou to 90+ seconds which may be good enough? I have
> > done drops to very lowloads -- so low that failure could not be
> > attained - it would seem at these lowloads certain slow (or fast
> > fibers) rest then contribute as the others nowrest??
> >
> > This I termed "bottomup" training.
> >
> > And finally I havetried Eccentric sets and drops to near total fiber
> > failure at very low loads-- a very taxingtraining protocol which
> > should be gradually built up to.
> >
> > I, somewhere, haveresearch on this matter which will try to find and
> send!
> >
> > Thanx for thequestion. It always helps me to write out my current
> > beliefs as it clarifiessame and most often leads to new ideas.
> >
> > I should have added. When concentric failure is reached do slow moe
> > bottom of movement -- end of eccentric, isometric, start of concentric
> partials.
> > Fiber tension is always greatest there (think tension-force
> > phenomenon), lasts the longest as fatigue accumulates(my research and
> > highly respected researchers Komi and Hakkinen from Finland) and is a
> > great highest possible tension set extender not wasting valuable
> > mental energy on uselessly low, detrimental or non existent fiber
> tensions
> attempting full ROM movements.
> > Do partials to complete failure that is less and less movement to zero
> > -- but not max intensity (totally psyched out -- competition effort)!
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> > Any remarks? -- Negative remarks welcomed!
> >
> > Jerry Telle
> > lakewood CO USA
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> Modify/cancel your subscription at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Sign all letters with full name & city of residence if you wish them to be
> published!
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think what you are referring to is recruitment level which, no matter
what the level of force developed is, will cause some fibers to be
recruited close to 100% and others (faster fibers) to be recruited at a
much lower percentage.
The fibers recruited at much lower level will alternate (in a so-to-speak
round-robin fashion). However, because of their metabolic characteristics,
slow-twitch fibers will be able to maintain their effort for a long time.
You can sort of understand it from the picture at this shortcut
http://bit.ly/
which is taken from
Enoka R. *Neuromechanics of human movement*. 4. ed. Champaign IL [u.a.]:
Human Kinetics; 2008.
The graph is in two parts, and kind of involved. However, you can get the
gist that, as recruitment increases the number of muscle fibers involved
increases, as well as their rate-coding (frequency of the
neuro-muscular frequency of impulses). The random ripple in the graph
denotes the fact that, as some muscle fibers are activated others are
dropped, and therefore the increase is messy.
Interesting is the following example anybody can try (learned in an
electrical muscle stimulation workshop). You can hear the frequency at
which muscle fibers fire if you plug both of your ears with your fingers.
The low volume rumble you hear is the frequency at which the muscle fibers
of your arm are firing. Because the firing has some noise in it and is
discrete in nature, you can hear the varying pressure in your ear. Try to
increase the pressure exercised by the fingers and the frequency goes up.
Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 4:16 PM, Phil Caraher <pcaraher1@nc.
> **
>
>
> It is my understanding the motor units in postural muscles will share the
> burden so that no one unit is always active which would prevent fatigue and
> maintain posture.
>
> Phil Caraher, DPT, MS, CSCS, PES, CES
> Physical Therapist
> Chapel Hill, NC
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Supertraining@
> On Behalf Of Giovanni Ciriani
> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 2:17 PM
> To: Supertraining@
> Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
>
> I do not understand the concept of fatigueing a fiber to train it. Mt
> understanding is that fibers adapt (train) because there is microdamage,
> which probably can happen even without fatigue to occur. In addition I
> thought that 100% type I fibers would be able to produce a certain force ad
> infinitum, such as postural fibers. If that was not the case then one would
> slump down on a desk after a few minutes because the muscles of the back
> were fatigued.
>
> Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
>
> On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 2:02 AM, <JRTELLE@aol.
>
> > **
>
> >
> >
> > Greetings all.
> >
> > I received this message from an obviously experienced trainer.
> >
> > Jerry:
> >
> > Iread in the summer issue of MILO that you determined that a Type 1
> > slow twitchmuscle fiber required a time under tension of 90 to 240
> > seconds to fatigue thatparticular fiber. From that I deduce that since
> > a muscle--say a leg or ashoulder one isn't one-hundred percent fast or
> > slow twitch, to adequatelyfatigue and build that muscle both types of
> > fibers need to be exercised. Ifthis is so, then I can only see a
> > couple of possibilities to attack the slowtwitch; lighter weight and
> higher reps or super slow reps.
> > Withsuper slow in order to reach the 90 second threshold would
> > probably necessitatea lower weight as well. Am I barking up the wrong
> > tree? If not, what are yoursuggestions for incorporating fatiguing
> > both types of fibers in a singleworkout?
> >
> > Ithank you for your time and effort in responding to this request.
> >
> > I responded.
> >
> > Right tree, rightbark -- maybe,
> >
> > I havephilosophically fought with these slow twitchers forever. At one
> > point I wasdoing drop sets starting with a IIb weight, then 2 - IIa
> > drop sets, then superslow up - two 120+ seconds. SEEMED to work. This
> > I termed "top down" training!Recent research seems to indicate that
> > exertion should last 50 - 55 seconds(for type II's???) then cessation!
> >
> > The type onestheoretically via the "size" principle are worked the
> > entire 55seconds also which is a pretty good stimulation -- maybe?
> >
> > Another that Ithink maybe better is to work the type II's on one day
> > and 3 days later theI's. The ones protocol being starting with a 30%
> > of 1 RM Slow moes at 4(to8)2(or more)40. that's 4240 or 4 down 2 at
> > the isometric bottom getting a superstretch - 4 up - 0 at top
> > isometric position. Here is 1
> > protocol:
> >
> > 1. 6240 to failure
> > 2. thenimmediately after failure 40X+0 the X+ being an explosive
> > positive up and 4down and no stop at bottom. The fascinating thing
> > being the explosive strengthleft after total slow moe failure. Should
> > be able to get
> > 2 maybe 3 xtra reps -very painful.
> > 3. 1 drop set ofsame protocol.
> > This should getyou to 90+ seconds which may be good enough? I have
> > done drops to very lowloads -- so low that failure could not be
> > attained - it would seem at these lowloads certain slow (or fast
> > fibers) rest then contribute as the others nowrest??
> >
> > This I termed "bottomup" training.
> >
> > And finally I havetried Eccentric sets and drops to near total fiber
> > failure at very low loads-- a very taxingtraining protocol which
> > should be gradually built up to.
> >
> > I, somewhere, haveresearch on this matter which will try to find and
> send!
> >
> > Thanx for thequestion. It always helps me to write out my current
> > beliefs as it clarifiessame and most often leads to new ideas.
> >
> > I should have added. When concentric failure is reached do slow moe
> > bottom of movement -- end of eccentric, isometric, start of concentric
> partials.
> > Fiber tension is always greatest there (think tension-force
> > phenomenon), lasts the longest as fatigue accumulates(
> > highly respected researchers Komi and Hakkinen from Finland) and is a
> > great highest possible tension set extender not wasting valuable
> > mental energy on uselessly low, detrimental or non existent fiber
> tensions
> attempting full ROM movements.
> > Do partials to complete failure that is less and less movement to zero
> > -- but not max intensity (totally psyched out -- competition effort)!
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> > Any remarks? -- Negative remarks welcomed!
> >
> > Jerry Telle
> > lakewood CO USA
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ------------
>
>
> Modify/cancel your subscription at:
>
> http://groups.
>
> Sign all letters with full name & city of residence if you wish them to be
> published!
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tue Nov 6, 2012 10:28 am (PST) . Posted by:
"Ralph Giarnella" ragiarn
The only muscle fibers that never fatigue are the heart muscles fibers. All voluntary muscles fibers fatigue even Type I.
The difference is that Type I fibers take longer to reach their limit. Mitochondrial density and capillary density are determining factors in how long it takes for voluntary muscle fibers to fatigue.
Type II fibers have significantly less mitochondria than Type I fibers. Specific endurance training will increase both mitochondrial density as well as capillary density in type I fibers.
During high intensity work such as weight lifting maximum force is achieved through synchronous recruitment of as many muscle fibers as possible.
The firing pattern of endurance athletes becomes asynchronous.During continuous contractions, some units are firing while others recover, providing a built in recovery period. The muscle fibers act some what like a circular relay race or a pace line in bicycle racing.. When one group tires another works while the first recovers and when second group tires a third takes over etc and this continues until it is the turn of the first group again.
The rapidity of fatigue also depends on what the primary source of energy is during the activity.
During all out max rep ATP and CP are the primary source of energy. Depending on training state there is less than 20 seconds worth of ATP and CP available stored for instant energy, after that the ATP has to be replenished during recovery.
Ralph Giarnella MD
Southington Ct. USA
________________________________
From: Phil Caraher <pcaraher1@nc.rr.com >
To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 5, 2012 4:16 PM
Subject: RE: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
It is my understanding the motor units in postural muscles will share the
burden so that no one unit is always active which would prevent fatigue and
maintain posture.
Phil Caraher, DPT, MS, CSCS, PES, CES
Physical Therapist
Chapel Hill, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Supertraining@yahoogroups.com ]
On Behalf Of Giovanni Ciriani
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 2:17 PM
To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
I do not understand the concept of fatigueing a fiber to train it. Mt
understanding is that fibers adapt (train) because there is microdamage,
which probably can happen even without fatigue to occur. In addition I
thought that 100% type I fibers would be able to produce a certain force ad
infinitum, such as postural fibers. If that was not the case then one would
slump down on a desk after a few minutes because the muscles of the back
were fatigued.
Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 2:02 AM, <JRTELLE@aol.com > wrote:
> **
>
>
> Greetings all.
>
> I received this message from an obviously experienced trainer.
>
> Jerry:
>
> Iread in the summer issue of MILO that you determined that a Type 1
> slow twitchmuscle fiber required a time under tension of 90 to 240
> seconds to fatigue thatparticular fiber. From that I deduce that since
> a muscle--say a leg or ashoulder one isn't one-hundred percent fast or
> slow twitch, to adequatelyfatigue and build that muscle both types of
> fibers need to be exercised. Ifthis is so, then I can only see a
> couple of possibilities to attack the slowtwitch; lighter weight and
higher reps or super slow reps.
> Withsuper slow in order to reach the 90 second threshold would
> probably necessitatea lower weight as well. Am I barking up the wrong
> tree? If not, what are yoursuggestions for incorporating fatiguing
> both types of fibers in a singleworkout?
>
> Ithank you for your time and effort in responding to this request.
>
> I responded.
>
> Right tree, rightbark -- maybe,
>
> I havephilosophically fought with these slow twitchers forever. At one
> point I wasdoing drop sets starting with a IIb weight, then 2 - IIa
> drop sets, then superslow up - two 120+ seconds. SEEMED to work. This
> I termed "top down" training!Recent research seems to indicate that
> exertion should last 50 - 55 seconds(for type II's???) then cessation!
>
> The type onestheoretically via the "size" principle are worked the
> entire 55seconds also which is a pretty good stimulation -- maybe?
>
> Another that Ithink maybe better is to work the type II's on one day
> and 3 days later theI's. The ones protocol being starting with a 30%
> of 1 RM Slow moes at 4(to8)2(or more)40. that's 4240 or 4 down 2 at
> the isometric bottom getting a superstretch - 4 up - 0 at top
> isometric position. Here is 1
> protocol:
>
> 1. 6240 to failure
> 2. thenimmediately after failure 40X+0 the X+ being an explosive
> positive up and 4down and no stop at bottom. The fascinating thing
> being the explosive strengthleft after total slow moe failure. Should
> be able to get
> 2 maybe 3 xtra reps -very painful.
> 3. 1 drop set ofsame protocol.
> This should getyou to 90+ seconds which may be good enough? I have
> done drops to very lowloads -- so low that failure could not be
> attained - it would seem at these lowloads certain slow (or fast
> fibers) rest then contribute as the others nowrest??
>
> This I termed "bottomup" training.
>
> And finally I havetried Eccentric sets and drops to near total fiber
> failure at very low loads-- a very taxingtraining protocol which
> should be gradually built up to.
>
> I, somewhere, haveresearch on this matter which will try to find and send!
>
> Thanx for thequestion. It always helps me to write out my current
> beliefs as it clarifiessame and most often leads to new ideas.
>
> I should have added. When concentric failure is reached do slow moe
> bottom of movement -- end of eccentric, isometric, start of concentric
partials.
> Fiber tension is always greatest there (think tension-force
> phenomenon), lasts the longest as fatigue accumulates(my research and
> highly respected researchers Komi and Hakkinen from Finland) and is a
> great highest possible tension set extender not wasting valuable
> mental energy on uselessly low, detrimental or non existent fiber tensions
attempting full ROM movements.
> Do partials to complete failure that is less and less movement to zero
> -- but not max intensity (totally psyched out -- competition effort)!
>
> Jerry
>
> Any remarks? -- Negative remarks welcomed!
>
> Jerry Telle
> lakewood CO USA
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Modify/cancel your subscription at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
Sign all letters with full name & city of residence if you wish them to be
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The difference is that Type I fibers take longer to reach their limit. Mitochondrial density and capillary density are determining factors in how long it takes for voluntary muscle fibers to fatigue.
Type II fibers have significantly less mitochondria than Type I fibers. Specific endurance training will increase both mitochondrial density as well as capillary density in type I fibers.
During high intensity work such as weight lifting maximum force is achieved through synchronous recruitment of as many muscle fibers as possible.
The firing pattern of endurance athletes becomes asynchronous.
The rapidity of fatigue also depends on what the primary source of energy is during the activity.
During all out max rep ATP and CP are the primary source of energy. Depending on training state there is less than 20 seconds worth of ATP and CP available stored for instant energy, after that the ATP has to be replenished during recovery.
Ralph Giarnella MD
Southington Ct. USA
____________
From: Phil Caraher <pcaraher1@nc.
To: Supertraining@
Sent: Monday, November 5, 2012 4:16 PM
Subject: RE: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
It is my understanding the motor units in postural muscles will share the
burden so that no one unit is always active which would prevent fatigue and
maintain posture.
Phil Caraher, DPT, MS, CSCS, PES, CES
Physical Therapist
Chapel Hill, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: Supertraining@
On Behalf Of Giovanni Ciriani
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 2:17 PM
To: Supertraining@
Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
I do not understand the concept of fatigueing a fiber to train it. Mt
understanding is that fibers adapt (train) because there is microdamage,
which probably can happen even without fatigue to occur. In addition I
thought that 100% type I fibers would be able to produce a certain force ad
infinitum, such as postural fibers. If that was not the case then one would
slump down on a desk after a few minutes because the muscles of the back
were fatigued.
Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 2:02 AM, <JRTELLE@aol.
> **
>
>
> Greetings all.
>
> I received this message from an obviously experienced trainer.
>
> Jerry:
>
> Iread in the summer issue of MILO that you determined that a Type 1
> slow twitchmuscle fiber required a time under tension of 90 to 240
> seconds to fatigue thatparticular fiber. From that I deduce that since
> a muscle--say a leg or ashoulder one isn't one-hundred percent fast or
> slow twitch, to adequatelyfatigue and build that muscle both types of
> fibers need to be exercised. Ifthis is so, then I can only see a
> couple of possibilities to attack the slowtwitch; lighter weight and
higher reps or super slow reps.
> Withsuper slow in order to reach the 90 second threshold would
> probably necessitatea lower weight as well. Am I barking up the wrong
> tree? If not, what are yoursuggestions for incorporating fatiguing
> both types of fibers in a singleworkout?
>
> Ithank you for your time and effort in responding to this request.
>
> I responded.
>
> Right tree, rightbark -- maybe,
>
> I havephilosophically fought with these slow twitchers forever. At one
> point I wasdoing drop sets starting with a IIb weight, then 2 - IIa
> drop sets, then superslow up - two 120+ seconds. SEEMED to work. This
> I termed "top down" training!Recent research seems to indicate that
> exertion should last 50 - 55 seconds(for type II's???) then cessation!
>
> The type onestheoretically via the "size" principle are worked the
> entire 55seconds also which is a pretty good stimulation -- maybe?
>
> Another that Ithink maybe better is to work the type II's on one day
> and 3 days later theI's. The ones protocol being starting with a 30%
> of 1 RM Slow moes at 4(to8)2(or more)40. that's 4240 or 4 down 2 at
> the isometric bottom getting a superstretch - 4 up - 0 at top
> isometric position. Here is 1
> protocol:
>
> 1. 6240 to failure
> 2. thenimmediately after failure 40X+0 the X+ being an explosive
> positive up and 4down and no stop at bottom. The fascinating thing
> being the explosive strengthleft after total slow moe failure. Should
> be able to get
> 2 maybe 3 xtra reps -very painful.
> 3. 1 drop set ofsame protocol.
> This should getyou to 90+ seconds which may be good enough? I have
> done drops to very lowloads -- so low that failure could not be
> attained - it would seem at these lowloads certain slow (or fast
> fibers) rest then contribute as the others nowrest??
>
> This I termed "bottomup" training.
>
> And finally I havetried Eccentric sets and drops to near total fiber
> failure at very low loads-- a very taxingtraining protocol which
> should be gradually built up to.
>
> I, somewhere, haveresearch on this matter which will try to find and send!
>
> Thanx for thequestion. It always helps me to write out my current
> beliefs as it clarifiessame and most often leads to new ideas.
>
> I should have added. When concentric failure is reached do slow moe
> bottom of movement -- end of eccentric, isometric, start of concentric
partials.
> Fiber tension is always greatest there (think tension-force
> phenomenon), lasts the longest as fatigue accumulates(
> highly respected researchers Komi and Hakkinen from Finland) and is a
> great highest possible tension set extender not wasting valuable
> mental energy on uselessly low, detrimental or non existent fiber tensions
attempting full ROM movements.
> Do partials to complete failure that is less and less movement to zero
> -- but not max intensity (totally psyched out -- competition effort)!
>
> Jerry
>
> Any remarks? -- Negative remarks welcomed!
>
> Jerry Telle
> lakewood CO USA
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------
Modify/cancel your subscription at:
http://groups.
Sign all letters with full name & city of residence if you wish them to be
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Wed Nov 7, 2012 6:38 am (PST) . Posted by:
"JRTELLE@AOL.COM"
Nice reply Ralph,
Points of my confusion: you say, "All voluntary muscles fibers fatigue even Type I." I probably agree with the following caveats. I have tried to totally, w/ the same eccentric concentric resistance attempting to max resistance over both ROM's by varying body positions, fatigue all fibers at once -- cant be done -- there's always some resistance that can be moved or resisted?! When it seemed that slow twitch had finally had it -- some higher threshold force would manifest?! And so on -- with immense amounts (for me anyway) of pain accruing.
I seem to recall Mel saying pretty much what you mentioned about endurance athletes cycling fibers to maintain tension. I believe Mel also implied/said that higher threshold fibers "orchestrate", also much like various sections of an orchestra. Some where in my past I? had research that indicated this also -- especially the very lowest threshold at 90+ secs. And could never totally concentrically below 2-5% max!? My brother accidently lost my last 2 copies of the 1993? "Beyond 2001" but should have it on a computer file somewhere.
Regardless, to what extent slow twitch can be hypertrophied beyond a certain % has probably not been conclusively established, though for an hypertrophy athlete it is important.
You say "During high intensity work such as weight lifting maximum force is achieved through synchronous recruitment of as many muscle fibers as possible". I'm sure you meant this to be a somewhat general statement in that "pure" synchrony is only approached as total muscle reaches high percents of fatigue, as much damage often results as one approaches "involuntary", life threatening maximums.
And finally you say -- "During all out max rep ATP and CP are the primary source of energy. Depending on training state there is less than 20 seconds worth of ATP and CP available stored for instant energy, after that the ATP has to be replenished during recovery". -- Again, we need to be aware that "during all out max rep"s -- during initial fresh voluntary exertions estimates range from 65- 85% involuntary max or 85% of involuntary fibers at varying degrees of summation/rate coding and synchronicity (or some thing in between) are exerted.
I don't remember exactly to what extent highest threshold IIb'-a's are summated and/or synchronized but wrote recently --- MISPLACING THE SOURCE OF COURSE - but here it is
SYNCHRONIZATION TENSION/FORCE TOTAL MUSCLE. Total muscle tension force is partly a function of basically howmany fibers are recruited at NEARLY the same moment. This never happens all atonce at first because the tension force would actually tear the muscle tendonsfrom their moorings (unless the muscle is fatigued) --- QUOTE -- (I'm looking for the source now -- midnite).
"If you perform asub-maximal task long enough to induce fatigue, the loss of force will becompensated by increased recruitment synchronization and increased rate coding (AND SUMMATION) of the recruited fibers. If a fiber is creating a specific required tension andis at a frequency which induces it to create 75% of it's maximum for example,as it fatigues, the SPS frequency will increase to keep it at that tensionlevel. Eventually, rate coding (AND SYNCHRONIZATION) will be maximized and the fiber (ENTIRE MUSCLE) will not be ableto continue to display that tension level".
I would add that if you perform max voluntary TASK that only 1 will be able to be performed (unless you can suddenly tap into that involuntary reserve -- which one would think you could since there is no additional weight involved -- that is there are unused (maybe not enough for requisite tensions) -- then again a 100% max effort taking about 2.5 seconds concentric depletes an enormous amount of momentary tensions -- much of it neural.
Will have to google slow twitch hypertrophy.
Jerry Telle
Lakewood CO USA
-----Original Message-----
From: Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@yahoo.com >
To: Supertraining <Supertraining@yahoogroups.com >
Sent: Tue, Nov 6, 2012 11:28 am
Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
The only muscle fibers that never fatigue are the heart muscles fibers. All voluntary muscles fibers fatigue even Type I.
The difference is that Type I fibers take longer to reach their limit. Mitochondrial density and capillary density are determining factors in how long it takes for voluntary muscle fibers to fatigue.
Type II fibers have significantly less mitochondria than Type I fibers. Specific endurance training will increase both mitochondrial density as well as capillary density in type I fibers.
During high intensity work such as weight lifting maximum force is achieved through synchronous recruitment of as many muscle fibers as possible.
The firing pattern of endurance athletes becomes asynchronous. During continuous contractions, some units are firing while others recover, providing a built in recovery period. The muscle fibers act some what like a circular relay race or a pace line in bicycle racing.. When one group tires another works while the first recovers and when second group tires a third takes over etc and this continues until it is the turn of the first group again.
The rapidity of fatigue also depends on what the primary source of energy is during the activity.
During all out max rep ATP and CP are the primary source of energy. Depending on training state there is less than 20 seconds worth of ATP and CP available stored for instant energy, after that the ATP has to be replenished during recovery.
Ralph Giarnella MD
Southington Ct. USA
________________________________
From: Phil Caraher <pcaraher1@nc.rr.com >
To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 5, 2012 4:16 PM
Subject: RE: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
It is my understanding the motor units in postural muscles will share the
burden so that no one unit is always active which would prevent fatigue and
maintain posture.
Phil Caraher, DPT, MS, CSCS, PES, CES
Physical Therapist
Chapel Hill, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Supertraining@yahoogroups.com ]
On Behalf Of Giovanni Ciriani
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 2:17 PM
To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
I do not understand the concept of fatigueing a fiber to train it. Mt
understanding is that fibers adapt (train) because there is microdamage,
which probably can happen even without fatigue to occur. In addition I
thought that 100% type I fibers would be able to produce a certain force ad
infinitum, such as postural fibers. If that was not the case then one would
slump down on a desk after a few minutes because the muscles of the back
were fatigued.
Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 2:02 AM, <JRTELLE@aol.com > wrote:
> **
>
>
> Greetings all.
>
> I received this message from an obviously experienced trainer.
>
> Jerry:
>
> Iread in the summer issue of MILO that you determined that a Type 1
> slow twitchmuscle fiber required a time under tension of 90 to 240
> seconds to fatigue thatparticular fiber. From that I deduce that since
> a muscle--say a leg or ashoulder one isn't one-hundred percent fast or
> slow twitch, to adequatelyfatigue and build that muscle both types of
> fibers need to be exercised. Ifthis is so, then I can only see a
> couple of possibilities to attack the slowtwitch; lighter weight and
higher reps or super slow reps.
> Withsuper slow in order to reach the 90 second threshold would
> probably necessitatea lower weight as well. Am I barking up the wrong
> tree? If not, what are yoursuggestions for incorporating fatiguing
> both types of fibers in a singleworkout?
>
> Ithank you for your time and effort in responding to this request.
>
> I responded.
>
> Right tree, rightbark -- maybe,
>
> I havephilosophically fought with these slow twitchers forever. At one
> point I wasdoing drop sets starting with a IIb weight, then 2 - IIa
> drop sets, then superslow up - two 120+ seconds. SEEMED to work. This
> I termed "top down" training!Recent research seems to indicate that
> exertion should last 50 - 55 seconds(for type II's???) then cessation!
>
> The type onestheoretically via the "size" principle are worked the
> entire 55seconds also which is a pretty good stimulation -- maybe?
>
> Another that Ithink maybe better is to work the type II's on one day
> and 3 days later theI's. The ones protocol being starting with a 30%
> of 1 RM Slow moes at 4(to8)2(or more)40. that's 4240 or 4 down 2 at
> the isometric bottom getting a superstretch - 4 up - 0 at top
> isometric position. Here is 1
> protocol:
>
> 1. 6240 to failure
> 2. thenimmediately after failure 40X+0 the X+ being an explosive
> positive up and 4down and no stop at bottom. The fascinating thing
> being the explosive strengthleft after total slow moe failure. Should
> be able to get
> 2 maybe 3 xtra reps -very painful.
> 3. 1 drop set ofsame protocol.
> This should getyou to 90+ seconds which may be good enough? I have
> done drops to very lowloads -- so low that failure could not be
> attained - it would seem at these lowloads certain slow (or fast
> fibers) rest then contribute as the others nowrest??
>
> This I termed "bottomup" training.
>
> And finally I havetried Eccentric sets and drops to near total fiber
> failure at very low loads-- a very taxingtraining protocol which
> should be gradually built up to.
>
> I, somewhere, haveresearch on this matter which will try to find and send!
>
> Thanx for thequestion. It always helps me to write out my current
> beliefs as it clarifiessame and most often leads to new ideas.
>
> I should have added. When concentric failure is reached do slow moe
> bottom of movement -- end of eccentric, isometric, start of concentric
partials.
> Fiber tension is always greatest there (think tension-force
> phenomenon), lasts the longest as fatigue accumulates(my research and
> highly respected researchers Komi and Hakkinen from Finland) and is a
> great highest possible tension set extender not wasting valuable
> mental energy on uselessly low, detrimental or non existent fiber tensions
attempting full ROM movements.
> Do partials to complete failure that is less and less movement to zero
> -- but not max intensity (totally psyched out -- competition effort)!
>
> Jerry
>
> Any remarks? -- Negative remarks welcomed!
>
> Jerry Telle
> lakewood CO USA
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Points of my confusion: you say, "All voluntary muscles fibers fatigue even Type I." I probably agree with the following caveats. I have tried to totally, w/ the same eccentric concentric resistance attempting to max resistance over both ROM's by varying body positions, fatigue all fibers at once -- cant be done -- there's always some resistance that can be moved or resisted?! When it seemed that slow twitch had finally had it -- some higher threshold force would manifest?! And so on -- with immense amounts (for me anyway) of pain accruing.
I seem to recall Mel saying pretty much what you mentioned about endurance athletes cycling fibers to maintain tension. I believe Mel also implied/said that higher threshold fibers "orchestrate"
Regardless, to what extent slow twitch can be hypertrophied beyond a certain % has probably not been conclusively established, though for an hypertrophy athlete it is important.
You say "During high intensity work such as weight lifting maximum force is achieved through synchronous recruitment of as many muscle fibers as possible". I'm sure you meant this to be a somewhat general statement in that "pure" synchrony is only approached as total muscle reaches high percents of fatigue, as much damage often results as one approaches "involuntary"
And finally you say -- "During all out max rep ATP and CP are the primary source of energy. Depending on training state there is less than 20 seconds worth of ATP and CP available stored for instant energy, after that the ATP has to be replenished during recovery". -- Again, we need to be aware that "during all out max rep"s -- during initial fresh voluntary exertions estimates range from 65- 85% involuntary max or 85% of involuntary fibers at varying degrees of summation/rate coding and synchronicity (or some thing in between) are exerted.
I don't remember exactly to what extent highest threshold IIb'-a's are summated and/or synchronized but wrote recently --- MISPLACING THE SOURCE OF COURSE - but here it is
SYNCHRONIZATION TENSION/FORCE TOTAL MUSCLE. Total muscle tension force is partly a function of basically howmany fibers are recruited at NEARLY the same moment. This never happens all atonce at first because the tension force would actually tear the muscle tendonsfrom their moorings (unless the muscle is fatigued) --- QUOTE -- (I'm looking for the source now -- midnite).
"If you perform asub-maximal task long enough to induce fatigue, the loss of force will becompensated by increased recruitment synchronization and increased rate coding (AND SUMMATION) of the recruited fibers. If a fiber is creating a specific required tension andis at a frequency which induces it to create 75% of it's maximum for example,as it fatigues, the SPS frequency will increase to keep it at that tensionlevel. Eventually, rate coding (AND SYNCHRONIZATION) will be maximized and the fiber (ENTIRE MUSCLE) will not be ableto continue to display that tension level".
I would add that if you perform max voluntary TASK that only 1 will be able to be performed (unless you can suddenly tap into that involuntary reserve -- which one would think you could since there is no additional weight involved -- that is there are unused (maybe not enough for requisite tensions) -- then again a 100% max effort taking about 2.5 seconds concentric depletes an enormous amount of momentary tensions -- much of it neural.
Will have to google slow twitch hypertrophy.
Jerry Telle
Lakewood CO USA
-----Original Message-----
From: Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@yahoo.
To: Supertraining <Supertraining@
Sent: Tue, Nov 6, 2012 11:28 am
Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
The only muscle fibers that never fatigue are the heart muscles fibers. All voluntary muscles fibers fatigue even Type I.
The difference is that Type I fibers take longer to reach their limit. Mitochondrial density and capillary density are determining factors in how long it takes for voluntary muscle fibers to fatigue.
Type II fibers have significantly less mitochondria than Type I fibers. Specific endurance training will increase both mitochondrial density as well as capillary density in type I fibers.
During high intensity work such as weight lifting maximum force is achieved through synchronous recruitment of as many muscle fibers as possible.
The firing pattern of endurance athletes becomes asynchronous. During continuous contractions, some units are firing while others recover, providing a built in recovery period. The muscle fibers act some what like a circular relay race or a pace line in bicycle racing.. When one group tires another works while the first recovers and when second group tires a third takes over etc and this continues until it is the turn of the first group again.
The rapidity of fatigue also depends on what the primary source of energy is during the activity.
During all out max rep ATP and CP are the primary source of energy. Depending on training state there is less than 20 seconds worth of ATP and CP available stored for instant energy, after that the ATP has to be replenished during recovery.
Ralph Giarnella MD
Southington Ct. USA
____________
From: Phil Caraher <pcaraher1@nc.
To: Supertraining@
Sent: Monday, November 5, 2012 4:16 PM
Subject: RE: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
It is my understanding the motor units in postural muscles will share the
burden so that no one unit is always active which would prevent fatigue and
maintain posture.
Phil Caraher, DPT, MS, CSCS, PES, CES
Physical Therapist
Chapel Hill, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: Supertraining@
On Behalf Of Giovanni Ciriani
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 2:17 PM
To: Supertraining@
Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
I do not understand the concept of fatigueing a fiber to train it. Mt
understanding is that fibers adapt (train) because there is microdamage,
which probably can happen even without fatigue to occur. In addition I
thought that 100% type I fibers would be able to produce a certain force ad
infinitum, such as postural fibers. If that was not the case then one would
slump down on a desk after a few minutes because the muscles of the back
were fatigued.
Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 2:02 AM, <JRTELLE@aol.
> **
>
>
> Greetings all.
>
> I received this message from an obviously experienced trainer.
>
> Jerry:
>
> Iread in the summer issue of MILO that you determined that a Type 1
> slow twitchmuscle fiber required a time under tension of 90 to 240
> seconds to fatigue thatparticular fiber. From that I deduce that since
> a muscle--say a leg or ashoulder one isn't one-hundred percent fast or
> slow twitch, to adequatelyfatigue and build that muscle both types of
> fibers need to be exercised. Ifthis is so, then I can only see a
> couple of possibilities to attack the slowtwitch; lighter weight and
higher reps or super slow reps.
> Withsuper slow in order to reach the 90 second threshold would
> probably necessitatea lower weight as well. Am I barking up the wrong
> tree? If not, what are yoursuggestions for incorporating fatiguing
> both types of fibers in a singleworkout?
>
> Ithank you for your time and effort in responding to this request.
>
> I responded.
>
> Right tree, rightbark -- maybe,
>
> I havephilosophically fought with these slow twitchers forever. At one
> point I wasdoing drop sets starting with a IIb weight, then 2 - IIa
> drop sets, then superslow up - two 120+ seconds. SEEMED to work. This
> I termed "top down" training!Recent research seems to indicate that
> exertion should last 50 - 55 seconds(for type II's???) then cessation!
>
> The type onestheoretically via the "size" principle are worked the
> entire 55seconds also which is a pretty good stimulation -- maybe?
>
> Another that Ithink maybe better is to work the type II's on one day
> and 3 days later theI's. The ones protocol being starting with a 30%
> of 1 RM Slow moes at 4(to8)2(or more)40. that's 4240 or 4 down 2 at
> the isometric bottom getting a superstretch - 4 up - 0 at top
> isometric position. Here is 1
> protocol:
>
> 1. 6240 to failure
> 2. thenimmediately after failure 40X+0 the X+ being an explosive
> positive up and 4down and no stop at bottom. The fascinating thing
> being the explosive strengthleft after total slow moe failure. Should
> be able to get
> 2 maybe 3 xtra reps -very painful.
> 3. 1 drop set ofsame protocol.
> This should getyou to 90+ seconds which may be good enough? I have
> done drops to very lowloads -- so low that failure could not be
> attained - it would seem at these lowloads certain slow (or fast
> fibers) rest then contribute as the others nowrest??
>
> This I termed "bottomup" training.
>
> And finally I havetried Eccentric sets and drops to near total fiber
> failure at very low loads-- a very taxingtraining protocol which
> should be gradually built up to.
>
> I, somewhere, haveresearch on this matter which will try to find and send!
>
> Thanx for thequestion. It always helps me to write out my current
> beliefs as it clarifiessame and most often leads to new ideas.
>
> I should have added. When concentric failure is reached do slow moe
> bottom of movement -- end of eccentric, isometric, start of concentric
partials.
> Fiber tension is always greatest there (think tension-force
> phenomenon), lasts the longest as fatigue accumulates(
> highly respected researchers Komi and Hakkinen from Finland) and is a
> great highest possible tension set extender not wasting valuable
> mental energy on uselessly low, detrimental or non existent fiber tensions
attempting full ROM movements.
> Do partials to complete failure that is less and less movement to zero
> -- but not max intensity (totally psyched out -- competition effort)!
>
> Jerry
>
> Any remarks? -- Negative remarks welcomed!
>
> Jerry Telle
> lakewood CO USA
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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