3 New Messages
Digest #4657
Messages
Sat Apr 13, 2013 7:53 am (PDT) . Posted by:
"martinhuizing1" martinhuizing1
Thanks for the reply and tip.
I know you did reply to this earlier.
Would you like to explain why you think - or maybe even proof - that using the average speed will result in a different F-v curve than when using maximum speed ?
Cheers,
drs. Martin Huizing
Exercise Physiologist
The Netherlands
--- In Supertraining@yahoogroups.com , Giovanni Ciriani <Giovanni.Ciriani@...> wrote:
>
> I remember we had a discussion on the paper (of which you provide the link)
> already.
>
> I can repeat what I said back then: the curve offered by the paper is
> linear because it doesn't refer to instantaneous speed bu to average speed.
> Hill's curve refers to instantaneous speed. By the way the link works only
> if one deletes the last period.
> Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
>
> On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 7:02 AM, Martin Huizing <martinhuizing1@...>wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Hi Supertraining fans,
> >
> > Much to my surprise I saw that my post 1 month ago was the last post to
> > this forum.
> > I started visiting this forum some 10 years ago, when Mel was - of course
> > - the leading poster here.
> >
> > I hope to stimulate discussion by bringing up some comments,
> > based especially on Mel's book Supertraining.
> > I will refer to the page in the book (6th edition) if possible.
> >
> > -----------------------------
> >
> > FORCE-VELOCITY
> > I will start with the use of the force-velocity curve in sports (also
> > based on the 1RM discussion early on);
> > In most text books and educational centers we learn about the Hyperbolic
> > force-velocity curve, discovered by Hill (page 19).
> >
> > On page 147, the limitations of the force-velocity curve are
> > discussed. Specifically, Hill's force-velocity curve has been found in
> > research with isolated muscles. The consequences of this isolated force on
> > - for example - the ground reaction force during a squat depends on (a.o.)
> > the length of the muscle, the influence of the muscle on the joints,
> > coordination with other muscles. When studying the F-v curve in throws or
> > jumps, the relation is shaped differently (page 148) or seems linear (see
> > http://orbi.ulg.ac.be/bitstream/2268/103152/1/Jidovtseff%201RM%20prediction.pdf.
> > ).
> >
> > The linear force-velocity curve is used in software of some training
> > devices, in order to predict the 1RM without having to max out during the
> > exercise.
> > As training effects are specific in technique, coordination, velocity,
> > etc. it's good to know what quality exactly you want to improve, and what
> > training program you should do.
> >
> > Therefore, it's not only the 1RM that is of interest, yet the whole
> > force-velocity curve at all velocities, especially those velocities
> > produced during sports.
> >
> > I look forward to your comments and/or experiences and research. Also I am
> > interested to know what products are used and how it is used to get the
> > results.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > drs. Martin Huizing
> > Exercise Physiologist
> > The Netherlands
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
I know you did reply to this earlier.
Would you like to explain why you think - or maybe even proof - that using the average speed will result in a different F-v curve than when using maximum speed ?
Cheers,
drs. Martin Huizing
Exercise Physiologist
The Netherlands
--- In Supertraining@
>
> I remember we had a discussion on the paper (of which you provide the link)
> already.
>
> I can repeat what I said back then: the curve offered by the paper is
> linear because it doesn't refer to instantaneous speed bu to average speed.
> Hill's curve refers to instantaneous speed. By the way the link works only
> if one deletes the last period.
> Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
>
> On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 7:02 AM, Martin Huizing <martinhuizing1@
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Hi Supertraining fans,
> >
> > Much to my surprise I saw that my post 1 month ago was the last post to
> > this forum.
> > I started visiting this forum some 10 years ago, when Mel was - of course
> > - the leading poster here.
> >
> > I hope to stimulate discussion by bringing up some comments,
> > based especially on Mel's book Supertraining.
> > I will refer to the page in the book (6th edition) if possible.
> >
> > ------------
> >
> > FORCE-VELOCITY
> > I will start with the use of the force-velocity curve in sports (also
> > based on the 1RM discussion early on);
> > In most text books and educational centers we learn about the Hyperbolic
> > force-velocity curve, discovered by Hill (page 19).
> >
> > On page 147, the limitations of the force-velocity curve are
> > discussed. Specifically, Hill's force-velocity curve has been found in
> > research with isolated muscles. The consequences of this isolated force on
> > - for example - the ground reaction force during a squat depends on (a.o.)
> > the length of the muscle, the influence of the muscle on the joints,
> > coordination with other muscles. When studying the F-v curve in throws or
> > jumps, the relation is shaped differently (page 148) or seems linear (see
> > http://orbi.
> > ).
> >
> > The linear force-velocity curve is used in software of some training
> > devices, in order to predict the 1RM without having to max out during the
> > exercise.
> > As training effects are specific in technique, coordination, velocity,
> > etc. it's good to know what quality exactly you want to improve, and what
> > training program you should do.
> >
> > Therefore, it's not only the 1RM that is of interest, yet the whole
> > force-velocity curve at all velocities, especially those velocities
> > produced during sports.
> >
> > I look forward to your comments and/or experiences and research. Also I am
> > interested to know what products are used and how it is used to get the
> > results.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > drs. Martin Huizing
> > Exercise Physiologist
> > The Netherlands
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:33 am (PDT) . Posted by:
coachj12002
In a message dated 4/12/2013 2:09:20 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
pcaraher1@nc.
Standing/Weight bearing Dynamic exercises are a good place to start. They
are functional and applicable to sports. Isometric non-weight bearing
exercises (planks) have little value for athletes. May have some value for
rehab. In additional to being a PT I was also a 19+meter shot putter in
college. I never came across a world class thrower'
include isometric/ non-WB core exercises and throwers need to train their
core as much as anyone.
Good points!
As Mel said back in '01:
"Why not simply accept that the core and periphery always operate
interactively and that drills which involve the whole body in a manner which is
closer to what is required in a given sport are more than adequate to improve
sporting prowess?
It is virtually impossible to train the core without the crucial
involvement of the periphery, all under central nervous control, so why not bury the
inappropriate and inaccurate term, "core stability" and simply refer to
balance and agility training as one component of Motor learning? It would
appear that proliferation of such terminology serves commercialised
professionals far more than science and practice."
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:12 am (PDT) . Posted by:
"mcm.certifiedtrainer" mcm.certifiedtrainer
I have reached out to this group before, without much luck....Let me try in a different way.
I am a 72 year old personal trainer. I lift I assume pretty heavy for my age. I still strive to increase my lifting weight, and intensity. Six weeks ago I sustained a fractured radius while doing dumb bell Tri extensions......Maybe this was a wake up call..... Maybe it's time to rethink how I work out......
I cannot find any studies, writings etc on the average person, who has average genetics, that's me, who is well trained and in there 70's. I think I might try to work out at 75% of a 1rm for 2 to 3 sets each, 8 to 10 exercises, two or three days a week. Is it possible to build on that type of routine over a period of time at my age.......can anyone suggest some other routines to help me build, but not get hurt, and at worst to maintain my muscularity as I continue hopefully to grow older.
Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Martin C. Mark
Boynton Beach, FL
I am a 72 year old personal trainer. I lift I assume pretty heavy for my age. I still strive to increase my lifting weight, and intensity. Six weeks ago I sustained a fractured radius while doing dumb bell Tri extensions..
I cannot find any studies, writings etc on the average person, who has average genetics, that's me, who is well trained and in there 70's. I think I might try to work out at 75% of a 1rm for 2 to 3 sets each, 8 to 10 exercises, two or three days a week. Is it possible to build on that type of routine over a period of time at my age.......can anyone suggest some other routines to help me build, but not get hurt, and at worst to maintain my muscularity as I continue hopefully to grow older.
Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Martin C. Mark
Boynton Beach, FL
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