Messages In This Digest (4 Messages)
- 1.1.
- Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy From: KennyCrox@aol.com
- 1.2.
- Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy From: Giovanni Ciriani
- 1.3.
- Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy From: David Salisbury
- 2.
- Natalia Verkhoshansky lectures From: dmj2585
Messages
- 1.1.
-
Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy
Posted by: "KennyCrox@aol.com" KennyCrox@aol.com
Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:13 am (PDT)
I broke it down into smaller bit size pieces. Sorry that confused you.
Kenny Croxdale
Rio Rancho, NM
-----Original Message-----
From: Giovanni Ciriani <Giovanni.Ciriani@Gmail.com >
To: Supertraining <Supertraining@yahoogroups. >com
Sent: Sun, Jun 17, 2012 4:35 pm
Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy
I don't think it's a good idea to come up with a new definition of strength
just for Supertraining. Usually strength is measured in terms of force,
i.e. either Newtons (N), Kilogram weight (Kg) of Pound weight (Lb).
Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 5:27 PM, Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@yahoo.com > wrote:
> **
>
>
>
>
> Kenny Crox wrote:
> There are different type of strength. Power is a sub class of strength.
> Also, there's relatively no power in powerlifting
>
> ********************
>
> Perhaps you can clarify those two statements. How do you measure
> strength?
> I would define it as the ability to apply force to move a mass over a
> distance in period of time.
> Both Olympic lifters and Power lifters move a mass a certain distance in a
> given period of time. In both cases the power can be calculated. You can
> then compare who produces more power.
>
>
> Ralph Giarnella MD
> Southington Ct. USA
>
> _____________________ _________ __
> From: "KennyCrox@aol.com " <KennyCrox@aol.com >
> To: Supertraining@yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 8:40 AM
>
> Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy
>
>
>
>
> There are different type of strength. Power is a sub class of strength.
>
> . The true power athletes are Olympic lifters, who have registered some
> of, if not, the highest power output forces on record.
>
> Kenny Croxdale, CSCS
> Rio Rancho, NM
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@yahoo.com >
> To: Supertraining <Supertraining@yahoogroups. >com
> Sent: Sun, Jun 17, 2012 5:39 am
> Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy
>
> It all depends on how one defines strength. The term strength is an
> ambiguous term at best. Perhaps a better term instead of strength would be
> power. Power defined as force x distance/time. Power lifters and olympic
> lifters are trying to gain the maximum short term power. Max force x short
> distance/minimum time. Endurance athletes are trying to develop sustained
> long term power (less force x greater distance/longer time).
>
> Maximum power requires firing a maximum number fibers simultaneously
> (synchronous) Endurance power requires firing groups small of fibers
> asynchronously. As one group of fibers fatigues another group takes over
> while the first recovers.
>
> In my opinion, the type of work done by body builders is somewhere between
> that of power lifters and that of endurance athletes.
>
> Power athletes are interested in developing maximally type II fibers,
> endurance athletes are trying to develop maximally type I fibers and I
> suspect that body builds are trying to develop both groups.
>
> Ralph Giarnella MD
> Southington Ct. USA
>
> _____________________ _________ __
> From: "efreem3407@aol.com " <efreem3407@aol.com >
> To: Supertraining@yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 12:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy
>
> Correct me if I am wrong but I think lean muscle gains correspond to
> strength increases. Any bodybuilder that gains lean muscle should have
> strength increases? Then again, this could be suspect, because I've seen
> bodybuilders using steroids that do only high rep and low weight workouts
> yet have massive amounts of muscle. I've seen bodybuilders do hundreds of
> reps on machines with say 100 lbs. yet still be huge and massive.
>
> I train as a powerlifter. I'm not training to gain a lot of bulk. I am
> mostly training for strength without massive amounts of body weight and
> bulk increases.
>
> Edwin Freeman, Jr.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: deadliftdiva <deadliftdiva@comcast.net >
> To: Supertraining <Supertraining@yahoogroups. >com
> Sent: Thu, Jun 14, 2012 9:31 am
> Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy
>
> I'm going to jump in here with one point that I think has bearing on the
> whole
> question: When we measure lean mass, we are not precise. We cannot be.
> What we
> get is some guess based on measurements which varies and can be misleading
> - and
> I recall Mel's comment long ago that the only truly accurate measure was
> "autopsy". Few would desire to have their lean mass evaluated this way
> during a
> growth phase in training, so that's clearly out :) .
>
> With the known variance in measuring methods (and here I recall James
> Krieger's
> good article on measuring that he thoughtfully shared some time ago with
> this
> group), my thinking is that there is a considerable margin of guessing
> that
> makes it possible to overestimate how much lean mass has been gained by an
> individual over time. I myself over the years have experienced wildly
> ranging
> measurements by folks who were said to be expert in such things -
> considering
> that the measurement of one's bodyfat subcutaneously or measurements to
> estimate
> a guess at overall bodyfat including a visceral estimate would have
> bearing on a
> presumed gain in lean mass by way of deducting the presumed bodyfat on
> board...
>
> I also once handed Mel a copy of a book that suggested you could 'squat
> for 6
> weeks and gain 20 pounds of lean hard muscle' and the response was that it
> was
> entertaining but unlikely to be accurate... Thankfully sq never had that
> effect
> on me personally or I'd have required more new wardrobes than I have been
> through personally over the years here as a competing powerlifter!
>
> So if we consider that measuring the bodyfat an individual has on board is
> still
> somewhat less effective than we would like, how then can we be sure of
> lean
> gains that would be based on our best guess of the fat to lean ratio of a
> person? Would not a "lean muscle gain" not be entirely muscle also, but
> the
> bones themselves responding to the increased loads as well?
>
> Interesting topic, back to reading. :)
>
> The Phantom
> aka Linda Schaefer, CMT/RMT, competing powerlifter
> Denver, Colorado, USA
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "kendaiganoneill" <kayoneill@earthlink.net >
> To: Supertraining@yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 5:54:05 PM
> Subject: [Supertraining] Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy
>
> Krista's reports of 25-44 lbs of muscle gain within a year for life long
> ectomorphs.
>
> I will dissent, however, on the notion that 20-30 lbs of muscle gain in as
> little as three months are hype. Back from the 1930s into the early 60s
> many a
> trainee reported 20 or more pounds increase in manly muscle over a three
> month
> period by means of specializing in 5 sets of 20 reps of breathing squats,
> some
> adding the Hise shrug. Thrice weekly, consuming nutrient dense whole foods
> and
> the sole protein supplement of that bygone era: milk.
>
> Breathing squats are especially demanding, certainly no fun save for
> Masochists.
> With each set, one breath between reps 1-5, then 2 deep breaths for reps
> 6-10,
> three deep breaths for reps 11-15, and - you guessed it - four deep
> breaths
> between reps 16-20. The immediately onto a picnic bench for sets of 20
> reps,
> very light weight dumbbell flyes to expand the rib cage for a big chest.
>
> These days I'll defer to the exciting new work coming out of McMaster
> University
> comparing 1 set of 8-10 1 RM to failure vs 3 sets of 8-10 to failure 80% 1
> RM vs
> 3 sets of 30 reps to failure with 30% 1 RM. Adding volume at 80% and 30%
> produced essentially equal hypertrophy, both significantly greater than 1
> set to
> failure (a failed idea).
>
> In my personal experience and that of training others, hitting significant
> annual hypertrophy is far more easily facilitated when rep schemes,
> cadence or
> tempo, stage sets, drop sets, using 30-80% 1 RM are all intelligently and
> strategically applied to one end: avoiding plateaus, instead sustainable
> anabolism.
>
> --- In Supertraining@yahoogroups. , Krista Scott-Dixoncom
> <kristascottdixon@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 4:13 PM, Anthony Pitruzzello
> > <tonypit45@...> wrote:
> > > Hello Everyone,
> > >
> > > I recently posted a question about rate of hypertrophy – basically,
> what are
>
> > > the optimal realistic results a person can expect, vs. the endless
> claims in
>
> > > the muscle mags, e.g., "Gain 20-30 pounds of lean muscle mass in six
> > > weeks!!!" I compared the responses with some other data, and I thought
> I
> > > would share it with the group.
> > >
> >
> > I work with John Berardi at Precision Nutrition, which runs a
> > muscle-gaining Scrawny to Brawny program. It's a one-year program that
> > focuses on step-by-step habit acquisition and entrainment, like our
> > other fat-loss program Lean Eating. We run a contest that awards money
> > to top finishers -- people who dramatically transform their bodies.
> >
> > Looking at our recent 12-month cohorts, our top finalists put on
> > between 25-44 lbs in a year. These are ectomorphs who are "lifetime
> > scrawnies", so they gain mass relatively slowly -- some made notable
> > transformations even with relatively less muscle gain, because small
> > amounts of mass make a big difference on a shorter/skinnier frame.
> > This is with a highly structured eating and training program, a coach,
> > and daily check-ins (lessons and habits). All material is
> > science/research-based as you might expect from JB and PN.
> >
> > Interestingly, our 6-month program was not as dissimilar as you would
> > expect -- it doesn't seem to be a linear scale.
> >
> > Here are finalists from our early, 6-month program:
> > http://www.precisionnutrition. com/s2b-winners- 2010
> >
> > Here are finalists from our 12-month program that begin in May 2011.
> > http://www.scrawnytobrawny.com/ may-2011- finalists
> >
> > Krista
> > Toronto, ON
> >
> > --------------------
> > Krista Scott-Dixon, PhD
> > Lean Eating Program Director
> > PrecisionNutrition.com
> > krista@...
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> --------------------- --------- ------
>
> Modify/cancel your subscription at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/ mygroups
>
> Sign all letters with full name & city of residence if you
> wish them to be published!
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
- 1.2.
-
Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy
Posted by: "Giovanni Ciriani" Giovanni.Ciriani@Gmail.com gciriani
Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:07 pm (PDT)
Kenny,
I'm not sure what you mean even in your last post.
Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 9:11 AM, <KennyCrox@aol.com > wrote:
> **
>
>
>
> I broke it down into smaller bit size pieces. Sorry that confused you.
>
> Kenny Croxdale
>
> Rio Rancho, NM
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Giovanni Ciriani <Giovanni.Ciriani@Gmail.com >
> To: Supertraining <Supertraining@yahoogroups. >com
> Sent: Sun, Jun 17, 2012 4:35 pm
> Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy
>
> I don't think it's a good idea to come up with a new definition of strength
> just for Supertraining. Usually strength is measured in terms of force,
> i.e. either Newtons (N), Kilogram weight (Kg) of Pound weight (Lb).
> Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
>
> On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 5:27 PM, Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@yahoo.com >
> wrote:
>
> > **
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Kenny Crox wrote:
> > There are different type of strength. Power is a sub class of strength.
> > Also, there's relatively no power in powerlifting
> >
> > ********************
> >
> > Perhaps you can clarify those two statements. How do you measure
> > strength?
> > I would define it as the ability to apply force to move a mass over a
> > distance in period of time.
> > Both Olympic lifters and Power lifters move a mass a certain distance in
> a
> > given period of time. In both cases the power can be calculated. You can
> > then compare who produces more power.
> >
> >
> > Ralph Giarnella MD
> > Southington Ct. USA
> >
> > _____________________ _________ __
> > From: "KennyCrox@aol.com " <KennyCrox@aol.com >
> > To: Supertraining@yahoogroups. com
> > Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 8:40 AM
> >
> > Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > There are different type of strength. Power is a sub class of strength.
> >
> > . The true power athletes are Olympic lifters, who have registered some
> > of, if not, the highest power output forces on record.
> >
> > Kenny Croxdale, CSCS
> > Rio Rancho, NM
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@yahoo.com >
> > To: Supertraining <Supertraining@yahoogroups. >com
> > Sent: Sun, Jun 17, 2012 5:39 am
> > Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy
> >
> > It all depends on how one defines strength. The term strength is an
> > ambiguous term at best. Perhaps a better term instead of strength would
> be
> > power. Power defined as force x distance/time. Power lifters and olympic
> > lifters are trying to gain the maximum short term power. Max force x
> short
> > distance/minimum time. Endurance athletes are trying to develop sustained
> > long term power (less force x greater distance/longer time).
> >
> > Maximum power requires firing a maximum number fibers simultaneously
> > (synchronous) Endurance power requires firing groups small of fibers
> > asynchronously. As one group of fibers fatigues another group takes over
> > while the first recovers.
> >
> > In my opinion, the type of work done by body builders is somewhere
> between
> > that of power lifters and that of endurance athletes.
> >
> > Power athletes are interested in developing maximally type II fibers,
> > endurance athletes are trying to develop maximally type I fibers and I
> > suspect that body builds are trying to develop both groups.
> >
> > Ralph Giarnella MD
> > Southington Ct. USA
> >
> > _____________________ _________ __
> > From: "efreem3407@aol.com " <efreem3407@aol.com >
> > To: Supertraining@yahoogroups. com
> > Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 12:49 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy
> >
> > Correct me if I am wrong but I think lean muscle gains correspond to
> > strength increases. Any bodybuilder that gains lean muscle should have
> > strength increases? Then again, this could be suspect, because I've seen
> > bodybuilders using steroids that do only high rep and low weight workouts
> > yet have massive amounts of muscle. I've seen bodybuilders do hundreds of
> > reps on machines with say 100 lbs. yet still be huge and massive.
> >
> > I train as a powerlifter. I'm not training to gain a lot of bulk. I am
> > mostly training for strength without massive amounts of body weight and
> > bulk increases.
> >
> > Edwin Freeman, Jr.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: deadliftdiva <deadliftdiva@comcast.net >
> > To: Supertraining <Supertraining@yahoogroups. >com
> > Sent: Thu, Jun 14, 2012 9:31 am
> > Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy
> >
> > I'm going to jump in here with one point that I think has bearing on the
> > whole
> > question: When we measure lean mass, we are not precise. We cannot be.
> > What we
> > get is some guess based on measurements which varies and can be
> misleading
> > - and
> > I recall Mel's comment long ago that the only truly accurate measure was
> > "autopsy". Few would desire to have their lean mass evaluated this way
> > during a
> > growth phase in training, so that's clearly out :) .
> >
> > With the known variance in measuring methods (and here I recall James
> > Krieger's
> > good article on measuring that he thoughtfully shared some time ago with
> > this
> > group), my thinking is that there is a considerable margin of guessing
> > that
> > makes it possible to overestimate how much lean mass has been gained by
> an
> > individual over time. I myself over the years have experienced wildly
> > ranging
> > measurements by folks who were said to be expert in such things -
> > considering
> > that the measurement of one's bodyfat subcutaneously or measurements to
> > estimate
> > a guess at overall bodyfat including a visceral estimate would have
> > bearing on a
> > presumed gain in lean mass by way of deducting the presumed bodyfat on
> > board...
> >
> > I also once handed Mel a copy of a book that suggested you could 'squat
> > for 6
> > weeks and gain 20 pounds of lean hard muscle' and the response was that
> it
> > was
> > entertaining but unlikely to be accurate... Thankfully sq never had that
> > effect
> > on me personally or I'd have required more new wardrobes than I have been
> > through personally over the years here as a competing powerlifter!
> >
> > So if we consider that measuring the bodyfat an individual has on board
> is
> > still
> > somewhat less effective than we would like, how then can we be sure of
> > lean
> > gains that would be based on our best guess of the fat to lean ratio of a
> > person? Would not a "lean muscle gain" not be entirely muscle also, but
> > the
> > bones themselves responding to the increased loads as well?
> >
> > Interesting topic, back to reading. :)
> >
> > The Phantom
> > aka Linda Schaefer, CMT/RMT, competing powerlifter
> > Denver, Colorado, USA
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "kendaiganoneill" <kayoneill@earthlink.net >
> > To: Supertraining@yahoogroups. com
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 5:54:05 PM
> > Subject: [Supertraining] Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy
> >
> > Krista's reports of 25-44 lbs of muscle gain within a year for life long
> > ectomorphs.
> >
> > I will dissent, however, on the notion that 20-30 lbs of muscle gain in
> as
> > little as three months are hype. Back from the 1930s into the early 60s
> > many a
> > trainee reported 20 or more pounds increase in manly muscle over a three
> > month
> > period by means of specializing in 5 sets of 20 reps of breathing squats,
> > some
> > adding the Hise shrug. Thrice weekly, consuming nutrient dense whole
> foods
> > and
> > the sole protein supplement of that bygone era: milk.
> >
> > Breathing squats are especially demanding, certainly no fun save for
> > Masochists.
> > With each set, one breath between reps 1-5, then 2 deep breaths for reps
> > 6-10,
> > three deep breaths for reps 11-15, and - you guessed it - four deep
> > breaths
> > between reps 16-20. The immediately onto a picnic bench for sets of 20
> > reps,
> > very light weight dumbbell flyes to expand the rib cage for a big chest.
> >
> > These days I'll defer to the exciting new work coming out of McMaster
> > University
> > comparing 1 set of 8-10 1 RM to failure vs 3 sets of 8-10 to failure 80%
> 1
> > RM vs
> > 3 sets of 30 reps to failure with 30% 1 RM. Adding volume at 80% and 30%
> > produced essentially equal hypertrophy, both significantly greater than 1
> > set to
> > failure (a failed idea).
> >
> > In my personal experience and that of training others, hitting
> significant
> > annual hypertrophy is far more easily facilitated when rep schemes,
> > cadence or
> > tempo, stage sets, drop sets, using 30-80% 1 RM are all intelligently and
> > strategically applied to one end: avoiding plateaus, instead sustainable
> > anabolism.
> >
> > --- In Supertraining@yahoogroups. , Krista Scott-Dixoncom
> > <kristascottdixon@...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 4:13 PM, Anthony Pitruzzello
> > > <tonypit45@...> wrote:
> > > > Hello Everyone,
> > > >
> > > > I recently posted a question about rate of hypertrophy – basically,
> > what are
> >
> > > > the optimal realistic results a person can expect, vs. the endless
> > claims in
> >
> > > > the muscle mags, e.g., "Gain 20-30 pounds of lean muscle mass in six
> > > > weeks!!!" I compared the responses with some other data, and I
> thought
> > I
> > > > would share it with the group.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I work with John Berardi at Precision Nutrition, which runs a
> > > muscle-gaining Scrawny to Brawny program. It's a one-year program that
> > > focuses on step-by-step habit acquisition and entrainment, like our
> > > other fat-loss program Lean Eating. We run a contest that awards money
> > > to top finishers -- people who dramatically transform their bodies.
> > >
> > > Looking at our recent 12-month cohorts, our top finalists put on
> > > between 25-44 lbs in a year. These are ectomorphs who are "lifetime
> > > scrawnies", so they gain mass relatively slowly -- some made notable
> > > transformations even with relatively less muscle gain, because small
> > > amounts of mass make a big difference on a shorter/skinnier frame.
> > > This is with a highly structured eating and training program, a coach,
> > > and daily check-ins (lessons and habits). All material is
> > > science/research-based as you might expect from JB and PN.
> > >
> > > Interestingly, our 6-month program was not as dissimilar as you would
> > > expect -- it doesn't seem to be a linear scale.
> > >
> > > Here are finalists from our early, 6-month program:
> > > http://www.precisionnutrition. com/s2b-winners- 2010
> > >
> > > Here are finalists from our 12-month program that begin in May 2011.
> > > http://www.scrawnytobrawny.com/ may-2011- finalists
> > >
> > > Krista
> > > Toronto, ON
> > >
> > > --------------------
> > > Krista Scott-Dixon, PhD
> > > Lean Eating Program Director
> > > PrecisionNutrition.com
> > > krista@...
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > --------------------- --------- ------
> >
> > Modify/cancel your subscription at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/ mygroups
> >
> > Sign all letters with full name & city of residence if you
> > wish them to be published!
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
- 1.3.
-
Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy
Posted by: "David Salisbury" jetskers@yahoo.com salisbur1
Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:07 pm (PDT)
Hmmm... Newtons is a measure of force, but I'm not so sure it's a way
of measuring strength, as it doesn't take into account the amount of time.
I can be as strong as a horse for the first 1/4 second, but the rate of
acceleration on the object will quickly degrade, but other, "stronger"
people can keep it accelerating longer. Newtons.. but for how long?
Dave Salisbury, Boulder, CO
Posted by: "Giovanni Ciriani" Giovanni.Ciriani@Gmail.com gciriani
Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:35 pm (PDT)
I don't think it's a good idea to come up with a new definition of strength
just for Supertraining. Usually strength is measured in terms of force,
i.e. either Newtons (N), Kilogram weight (Kg) of Pound weight (Lb).
Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
- 2.
-
Natalia Verkhoshansky lectures
Posted by: "dmj2585" dmj2585@yahoo.com dmj2585
Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:14 am (PDT)
I am writing to announce that Natalia Verkhoshansky's recent lectures at the University of Richmond are now available for sale here, http://www.ultimate athleteconcepts. com/content/ shock-method- and-plyometrics- general-adaptati on-syndrome- dvd-combo
This marks the first lecture ever given in the U.S. by her or her father, the late Yuri Verkhoshansky. She gave two excellent lectures in english on the Shock Method and new findings about the General Adaptation Syndrome. The information presented is of the highest quality
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