3 New Messages
Digest #4634
Messages
Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:00 pm (PST) . Posted by:
"Exarchives@aol.com" exarchives
1. Knowing and understanding Jones, he knew within the first sentence that
you spoke to him, he had no interest in you. That was the way he was.
2. Having never met Mike Mentzer, I'll keep the subject to Jones.
3. Arthur Jones at that time had likely lost his interest in such as your
brochure.
4. My foundations are merely to address the anatomy, not activity, movement
speed, modality, skill/sport/
to as "strength athlete" - whatever that means.
5. He had too deal with Millions of people. Arthur Jones gave you the ball
and it was up to you to think for yourself. Figure that out.
6. I have not read MSM, but recently spoke to someone who knows far better
than the Collective take in that book, with the exception of one. I sat
with those many times who were there many years before that book came out.
7. "exercise science" foundations are a crap shoot - go pick on me? Go to
_www.exercisefraud.
am wrong.
8. Arthur Jones was an individual - please start your "education" with the
book Crocodile Trader.
David Landau
Aventura, Florida
In a message dated 11/16/2012 11:50:35 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
JRTELLE@AOL.
Greetings to the enlightened,
> SEE BELOW
>
> Landau writes. Very Nice - Dog a Man when he is dead.
>
> Telle--I "dogged" him every chance I could when he was alive! I finally,
after 20 years of trying, in the early 90's I had a chance to meet him
eyeball to eyeball in Las Vegas. I expected, planned and hoped for a loud and
intense confrontation which I really enjoy when with someone I detest! I
had a booklet of my research which I gave to him -- saying something along the
lines of "I think you are going to find this disturbing"! He calmly looked
at it and said "I'll look it over and get back to you". My disappointment
was immense. I expected him to pull his OMNIPRESENT, INFINITOMETRIC,
TRIAXIAL, MULTIDIRECTIAL 357 magnum he had always carried and threatened many
people with -- and at the same time start running on in a tirade using physics
terms no one ever heard of and ommitting all of physiologies main
principals such as the "tension - length" or "tension - speed" principles.
>
> I had such a confrontation with the Jonesd (both as an amphetamine and
Jones addict) Mike Menzer at Bill Phillips "challenge an expert" seminar. I
told him in my best imitation of Jones that I could muster that the "ALL or
NONE" principle was a neural not an All or None muscle force event --
after which I told him Jonses' resistance curves were totally wrong also! He
went somewhat ballistic and told Bill Phillips to drag me out of there. Bill
said "that's enough" and I had to return to my seat. Iv'e never had so much
fun.
>
> Alas this was not to come to pass with Jones. After he said "I will get
back to you" he calmly took my brochure and walked away. I'm still waiting!
What do you think my chances are?
>
> Landau writes. "Well thanks to Arthur Jones, a
> "dummy" like me exists to take his foundations to a "moronic" level.
>
> telle -- you're off to a good start
>
> Landau writes. Well let me tell you something, if his foundations were
in stone today, there would be a rational ray of hope.
Telle -- And what foundations would those be? And RATIONAL? in what way?
He was a lunatic. Have you read Roaches, MUSCLE, SMOKE AND MIRRORS. Vol II ?
> Landau writes. "But the foundations that exist today in "exercise
fizzilogy" are worse than pathetic".
Telle. Again and what "fizzilogical" foundations exist today ?
> Landau writes. I have to thank Arthur Jones from moving me away from
what exists in the worse than Silly/Macho Culture today.
Telle. Jones was the ultimate in Macho Culture.
>
>
> Jerry Telle
Lakewood CO USA
>
>
In a message dated 11/11/2012 12:50:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
JRTELLE@AOL.
Dear Supertrainers,
Below are my latest thoughts on resistance training. I havepresented these
over the years, apparently to no avail, to some of the biggest names
inresearch and physiology.
It is now glaringly apparent that unless one has a stronglifting
background that they have no idea what they are researching andresults
they
find. Hatfield is a huge example of this. Fred is only about 10X'ssmarter
than
Arthur Jones of Nautilus fame, who many still believe to be adesign
genius. He was actually a moron when it came to research and design
--telling
more lies and exaggerations along the way than a most any of us fromthat
era
are willing to believe.
Anyway, Kim Goss and I were to write a Jones -- force-strengthcurve
article for BFS (Bigger-Faster-
atmost, 4
pages. After 64 pages I knew I was way past any help to Kim who wrote
agood
article anyway. But I was well into having a great time
crystallizingpresen
the very beginning!If
you were aware of resistance training from the early 70's through the 90'
syou were aware of his grossly offensive style. Over the years he
challenged,be-
agree with him.
Healways carried and often brandished a 357 magnum and was known to use
both endsof it to increase his fear factor for his paranoid pathological
ends. Hethreatened condescendingly in the most inappropriate manner,
everyone
in theweight training industry – even Bill Pearl who somehow had Jones
pretty
muchfigured out and also according to Roach who wrote the wildly well
researchedand interesting "MUSCLE, SMOKE & MIRRORS Vol I, II & III. Volume
IIfocuses pretty much on Arthur's tactics -- including contributions and
negative legacies he left behind. 90% ofthe Jones information comes from
this
book.
I was inventing my own devices along the way and even wroteJones on a #
occasions to tell him I had better ways of training and varyingresistance.
Every time he said we were all idiots who couldn't find our ----with
either
hand I was spurned onward as he brought back in full force thememories of
bullies from days past! Since I never got any death threats like Pearl and
did he probably didn't even seemy writings. Finally in the mid
90's I had a chance to meet with him eyeball toeyeball..
This expanding paper has many objectives:
• the history and definition of FORCE/STRENGTH & RESISTANCE CURVES.
• what force curves are and how to utilize this informationin your
training. This gets involved rather quickly, but if I keep thetrain of
concept
from basic andthen advance it at rates we both will understand we will
know
more about forcecurves and critical concepts that will put both of our
understandings way overthe contemporary "curve!!"
We will see that
• most expert trainers have only a cursory idea what thesecurves really
are,
• why machines AND FREE WEIGHTS have failed to live up totheir potentials
in the past and,
• how and why free weights are the very best resistance and,
• how we can use this information for dramatically improvingour and our
clients training –and lastly
• what the future directions may be.
Much of the paper is framed w/ my private battles w/ Jones(though he had
no idea) AND my private battles with understanding and utilizing the
present
state of the hypertrophy, strength and power art andhow to best present
these ideas to others.
Here are some excerpts from the ?? pages and continually expendingarticle
with MOST editorializing omitted.
A TALE OF TWO INVENTORS A GENIUS AND A DUMB JOCK
A Jones from every indication was a free spirited, oftenvolatile, terribly
intelligent(
born on a lightening bolt into a family of Doctors……..with a huge
superiority complex.
TELLE THE LESS THAN MENTIONABLE EARLY DAYS
(Un)FortunatelyI was born to a rocket scientist ----- with a yet to be
recognized mentaldisorder ADD -- which eventually matured into ADD/BIPOLAR
II.
I was the quintessential playground whipping post andcollector of sand, a
goofy looking (and probably acting) tall, gangly yearahead in school,
precocious reader reading at the 8th grade level inthe 2nd grade --with a
huge
inferiority complex.
------------
…….. The difference between my research machine andisokinetics research
by noted researchers(
measured expressed force DYNAMICALLY over theentire ROM using INERTIAL
(actual
weight) as the primaryresistance and if necessary an active hydraulic
cylinder, which couldeither "fill in" end of concentric rep resistance
forces
or actively createimmense (& possibly quite dangerous) eccentric forces)……
INERTIAL RESISTANCEIS THE MUST FACTOR IN RESEARCH AND TRAINING ….. MUCH
DELETED –inertialresistance must be provided at the EIC phase for many
different reasons-----
PERTINENT FACTS
1. Of great and unfortunate co-incidence isokinetic forcecurves measured
mostly at joint rotations of 90° to 300° per second apparentlyvalidated
the
max isometric measuring of different positions over the ROM (withrests
between efforts) manifestations ………. That is the general isokinetic
curveshape
was similar to the isometric curve with the isometric being ofconsiderably
greater magnitude and isokinetic concentric curves decreasingsymmetric
in force as joint rotation speeds increased.
2. ……… Now, if you will, think back to what a max, raw/noshirt or suit,
attempt bench or squat felt like. You may remember an energydepleting
eccentric lowering -- an explosive start, a …… grind it out throughthe
sticking
point almost to lockout AND …… a failure!!! -- that or an …excruciating
lockout. And all this at the point where your strength was tested………
(w/short movements in a power rack)…… 70-80% GREATER than the
initialstarting
phase!!!!! So where did your big 500 lb lockout strength go? Why ofcourse
--
to ………that RUINATOR OF Max attempts……….. FATIGUE!! -- and allunder 2.5
seconds !GRAPH , 2, successful lift or ------------
The same thing happens over a set of repetitions -- athleteforces at the
end of the concentric START of eccentric reps fades faster thanthe
concentric beginnings and eccentric end phases of each movement………….
Regardless, after much trial and error I had to face theinevitable
reality. The concept of a single athlete expressed force curve foranyone,
FOR ANY
MOVEMENT, was totally wrong.
In essence athlete force varies eachrep as a function of time, movement
position, eccentric or concentric movement,rate of movement, effort
intensity, fatigue, time of day and, and, and ????? Not to mention the
concept of a
full ROM (AND TRAINING TO FAILURE) asbeing questionable.
In essence there is no consistent forcecurve configuration.
good as possible" fixed curves for machineswith all of their huge
attendant problems."
Simply(?) put, every exercise has a momentary measureableexternal
expressed athlete force curve, as a function of the above variables,which
describes
the max potential expressed force of the exerciser over, NOTonly the
entire ROM, if desired BUT PARTICULARLY AND MORE IMPORTANTLY,
RANGE OF
MOTION/MOVEMENT PHASE THAT GENERATES THE HIGHEST INTERNALMUSCLE FIBER
TENSIONS……………
………. AT THIS POINT TRAINING TAKEAWAYS
1. When using bands or chains increase the top of movementloading by 15%
on exercises with an ascending or increasing force profile,squats,
deadlifts
and presses during the rep. Drop of the chains 2 reps before failure and
continue……….
…………………. with intelligent training a max initial fast aspossible
concentric movement effort and equal, or increased eccentric effortfocus
-- again
at the EIC Eccentric-isometric
starts out highest and resists fatigue the longest equates tomaximal "fresh
"
fiber tensions at the first rep and max momentary fatiguingfiber tension
throughout the set.
Previously, max expressed and measureable forces,apparently regardless of
fiber tension potentials, werethe primary considerations for resistance
curves.
STRANGE BUT TRUE?
Resistance must remain highest during max potential FIBERTENSION movement
phases regardless of and/or at the expense of resistancelevels of weaker
useless, energy depleting fiber tension movement phases! As the typical
set
progresses and fatigue accumulates FULL ROM IS NOTONLY NOT BENEFICIAL BUT
MOST OFTEN DETRIMENTAL TO MAX TENSILE HYPERTROPHYAND HYPERTROPHY STRENGTH
GAINS.......
One study1…….demonstrated that … strength training at the shortest
weakest fiber tensionphase did not transfer to …….. strength gains at
this
movement phase. "Thegains in strength were at long muscle lengths, with
little
change instrength at the short test lengths. (WHICH ARE OFTEN WHERE THE
HIGHESTMEASUREABLE FORCES ARE, BENCH SQUAT—telle) As the training
involvedthe
same relative …….. loading of the muscle through the full range ofmovement
—
that is, in relation to the angle-torque relation— proportionalincreas
would be expected at all muscle lengths."
In other words the strength gains (hypertrophy?
muscle lengths despite (isometric) training andtesting over the full range
of movement.
A mild relatively safe (no extraeccentrics at start of set but only during
greatly fatigued phases), exampleusing the time tested 7,7,7 curl scenario
with changes:
* AT TRAINING - NOT MAX INTENSITIES stopping 1-2 reps short of total
failure at each stage.
1.the first 7-12 reps should be full curl movements, 2. thenext
7-12 reps should be bottom 1/2 of movements! 3. Next, shorter and shorter
partial movements until no movement isexpressed until movement stops.
4.Next cheating the bar 1/3 of way up and controlling the negative
furtherextends the set and benefits. 5. Lastly:
holding the bar in the stretched position until the thing drops.
…………..
……..Wasting huge amounts of (nervous?) system energy to"lock out"
presses, deadlifts or squats "locks you out" of highest fibertensions,
lower EIC
partial movements, extended set training. Forget the fullROM force reps
and do shorter and shorter EIC ROMS. This is "ALWAYS" during the "EICEIC"
Eccentric, Isometric,Concentri
………..The best exercise resistance equals,either as a percent of max
(eccentric) and max concentric effort force, thepotential highest internal
muscle fibers tensions NOT thehighest external force curve expressions.
This is "
ALWAYS"during the "EICEIC" Eccentric, Isometric, Concentricmovement
phase.
……….As fatigue accumulates the EIC ROM decreases indegrees, scope,
extent, all the way down from complete ROM to no movement andthe meagerest
of
eccentric tensions.
FOOTNOTES.
1. Graves JE, Pollock ML, JONES ARTHUR E, et al. Specificityof limited
range of motion variable resistance training. Med Sci Sports
Exerc1989;21:
7. Jones could produce no records to have derived his variableresistance
cam profiles. He claimed to have
1. measured the max isometric (resistance not moving) forceexpressions of
groups of untrained peoples at many positions over the entireROM (range of
movement/motion) AND with rests between efforts. This wasimpossible. This
is because for many back exercises the start of movementstrength is 4-5 X'
s
higher than end of movement strength. His resistanceincreases not
decreases
over the lifting ROM of every exercise.
2. he believed in increasing resistance to the "FULLYCONTRACTED" CIE top
position, where the interrelating tension developingactin/
were in greatest contact -- interface to the greatestdegree -- at
absolutely
the lowest fiber tensions……..
He carried thisidea: a. disregardingreams of even his own, if he
in fact did any, isometric test data..
b. disregarding the tension-length phenomenon firstdiscovered by Blitz in
18?? see above and
c. incorrectly misinterpreting the "ALL or NONE" process anda number of
other concepts.
I remember writing to him when I first redesigned the camsto control for
fatigue (somewhat) in the early '70's, I also remember writingto him with
my research machine data in the mid 80's -- no reply.
After I had built and researched the entire mess by the mideighties I
finally began to really understand the complexity and immensevariability
of
force, tension and resistance ………….
??????
Jerry Telle
Lakewood CO USA
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you spoke to him, he had no interest in you. That was the way he was.
2. Having never met Mike Mentzer, I'll keep the subject to Jones.
3. Arthur Jones at that time had likely lost his interest in such as your
brochure.
4. My foundations are merely to address the anatomy, not activity, movement
speed, modality, skill/sport/
to as "strength athlete" - whatever that means.
5. He had too deal with Millions of people. Arthur Jones gave you the ball
and it was up to you to think for yourself. Figure that out.
6. I have not read MSM, but recently spoke to someone who knows far better
than the Collective take in that book, with the exception of one. I sat
with those many times who were there many years before that book came out.
7. "exercise science" foundations are a crap shoot - go pick on me? Go to
_www.exercisefraud.
am wrong.
8. Arthur Jones was an individual - please start your "education" with the
book Crocodile Trader.
David Landau
Aventura, Florida
In a message dated 11/16/2012 11:50:35 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
JRTELLE@AOL.
Greetings to the enlightened,
> SEE BELOW
>
> Landau writes. Very Nice - Dog a Man when he is dead.
>
> Telle--I "dogged" him every chance I could when he was alive! I finally,
after 20 years of trying, in the early 90's I had a chance to meet him
eyeball to eyeball in Las Vegas. I expected, planned and hoped for a loud and
intense confrontation which I really enjoy when with someone I detest! I
had a booklet of my research which I gave to him -- saying something along the
lines of "I think you are going to find this disturbing"! He calmly looked
at it and said "I'll look it over and get back to you". My disappointment
was immense. I expected him to pull his OMNIPRESENT, INFINITOMETRIC,
TRIAXIAL, MULTIDIRECTIAL 357 magnum he had always carried and threatened many
people with -- and at the same time start running on in a tirade using physics
terms no one ever heard of and ommitting all of physiologies main
principals such as the "tension - length" or "tension - speed" principles.
>
> I had such a confrontation with the Jonesd (both as an amphetamine and
Jones addict) Mike Menzer at Bill Phillips "challenge an expert" seminar. I
told him in my best imitation of Jones that I could muster that the "ALL or
NONE" principle was a neural not an All or None muscle force event --
after which I told him Jonses' resistance curves were totally wrong also! He
went somewhat ballistic and told Bill Phillips to drag me out of there. Bill
said "that's enough" and I had to return to my seat. Iv'e never had so much
fun.
>
> Alas this was not to come to pass with Jones. After he said "I will get
back to you" he calmly took my brochure and walked away. I'm still waiting!
What do you think my chances are?
>
> Landau writes. "Well thanks to Arthur Jones, a
> "dummy" like me exists to take his foundations to a "moronic" level.
>
> telle -- you're off to a good start
>
> Landau writes. Well let me tell you something, if his foundations were
in stone today, there would be a rational ray of hope.
Telle -- And what foundations would those be? And RATIONAL? in what way?
He was a lunatic. Have you read Roaches, MUSCLE, SMOKE AND MIRRORS. Vol II ?
> Landau writes. "But the foundations that exist today in "exercise
fizzilogy" are worse than pathetic".
Telle. Again and what "fizzilogical" foundations exist today ?
> Landau writes. I have to thank Arthur Jones from moving me away from
what exists in the worse than Silly/Macho Culture today.
Telle. Jones was the ultimate in Macho Culture.
>
>
> Jerry Telle
Lakewood CO USA
>
>
In a message dated 11/11/2012 12:50:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
JRTELLE@AOL.
Dear Supertrainers,
Below are my latest thoughts on resistance training. I havepresented these
over the years, apparently to no avail, to some of the biggest names
inresearch and physiology.
It is now glaringly apparent that unless one has a stronglifting
background that they have no idea what they are researching andresults
they
find. Hatfield is a huge example of this. Fred is only about 10X'ssmarter
than
Arthur Jones of Nautilus fame, who many still believe to be adesign
genius. He was actually a moron when it came to research and design
--telling
more lies and exaggerations along the way than a most any of us fromthat
era
are willing to believe.
Anyway, Kim Goss and I were to write a Jones -- force-strengthcurve
article for BFS (Bigger-Faster-
atmost, 4
pages. After 64 pages I knew I was way past any help to Kim who wrote
agood
article anyway. But I was well into having a great time
crystallizingpresen
the very beginning!If
you were aware of resistance training from the early 70's through the 90'
syou were aware of his grossly offensive style. Over the years he
challenged,be-
agree with him.
Healways carried and often brandished a 357 magnum and was known to use
both endsof it to increase his fear factor for his paranoid pathological
ends. Hethreatened condescendingly in the most inappropriate manner,
everyone
in theweight training industry – even Bill Pearl who somehow had Jones
pretty
muchfigured out and also according to Roach who wrote the wildly well
researchedand interesting "MUSCLE, SMOKE & MIRRORS Vol I, II & III. Volume
IIfocuses pretty much on Arthur's tactics -- including contributions and
negative legacies he left behind. 90% ofthe Jones information comes from
this
book.
I was inventing my own devices along the way and even wroteJones on a #
occasions to tell him I had better ways of training and varyingresistance.
Every time he said we were all idiots who couldn't find our ----with
either
hand I was spurned onward as he brought back in full force thememories of
bullies from days past! Since I never got any death threats like Pearl and
did he probably didn't even seemy writings. Finally in the mid
90's I had a chance to meet with him eyeball toeyeball..
This expanding paper has many objectives:
• the history and definition of FORCE/STRENGTH & RESISTANCE CURVES.
• what force curves are and how to utilize this informationin your
training. This gets involved rather quickly, but if I keep thetrain of
concept
from basic andthen advance it at rates we both will understand we will
know
more about forcecurves and critical concepts that will put both of our
understandings way overthe contemporary "curve!!"
We will see that
• most expert trainers have only a cursory idea what thesecurves really
are,
• why machines AND FREE WEIGHTS have failed to live up totheir potentials
in the past and,
• how and why free weights are the very best resistance and,
• how we can use this information for dramatically improvingour and our
clients training –and lastly
• what the future directions may be.
Much of the paper is framed w/ my private battles w/ Jones(though he had
no idea) AND my private battles with understanding and utilizing the
present
state of the hypertrophy, strength and power art andhow to best present
these ideas to others.
Here are some excerpts from the ?? pages and continually expendingarticle
with MOST editorializing omitted.
A TALE OF TWO INVENTORS A GENIUS AND A DUMB JOCK
A Jones from every indication was a free spirited, oftenvolatile, terribly
intelligent(
born on a lightening bolt into a family of Doctors……..with a huge
superiority complex.
TELLE THE LESS THAN MENTIONABLE EARLY DAYS
(Un)FortunatelyI was born to a rocket scientist ----- with a yet to be
recognized mentaldisorder ADD -- which eventually matured into ADD/BIPOLAR
II.
I was the quintessential playground whipping post andcollector of sand, a
goofy looking (and probably acting) tall, gangly yearahead in school,
precocious reader reading at the 8th grade level inthe 2nd grade --with a
huge
inferiority complex.
------------
…….. The difference between my research machine andisokinetics research
by noted researchers(
measured expressed force DYNAMICALLY over theentire ROM using INERTIAL
(actual
weight) as the primaryresistance and if necessary an active hydraulic
cylinder, which couldeither "fill in" end of concentric rep resistance
forces
or actively createimmense (& possibly quite dangerous) eccentric forces)……
INERTIAL RESISTANCEIS THE MUST FACTOR IN RESEARCH AND TRAINING ….. MUCH
DELETED –inertialresistance must be provided at the EIC phase for many
different reasons-----
PERTINENT FACTS
1. Of great and unfortunate co-incidence isokinetic forcecurves measured
mostly at joint rotations of 90° to 300° per second apparentlyvalidated
the
max isometric measuring of different positions over the ROM (withrests
between efforts) manifestations ………. That is the general isokinetic
curveshape
was similar to the isometric curve with the isometric being ofconsiderably
greater magnitude and isokinetic concentric curves decreasingsymmetric
in force as joint rotation speeds increased.
2. ……… Now, if you will, think back to what a max, raw/noshirt or suit,
attempt bench or squat felt like. You may remember an energydepleting
eccentric lowering -- an explosive start, a …… grind it out throughthe
sticking
point almost to lockout AND …… a failure!!! -- that or an …excruciating
lockout. And all this at the point where your strength was tested………
(w/short movements in a power rack)…… 70-80% GREATER than the
initialstarting
phase!!!!! So where did your big 500 lb lockout strength go? Why ofcourse
--
to ………that RUINATOR OF Max attempts……….. FATIGUE!! -- and allunder 2.5
seconds !GRAPH , 2, successful lift or ------------
The same thing happens over a set of repetitions -- athleteforces at the
end of the concentric START of eccentric reps fades faster thanthe
concentric beginnings and eccentric end phases of each movement………….
Regardless, after much trial and error I had to face theinevitable
reality. The concept of a single athlete expressed force curve foranyone,
FOR ANY
MOVEMENT, was totally wrong.
In essence athlete force varies eachrep as a function of time, movement
position, eccentric or concentric movement,rate of movement, effort
intensity, fatigue, time of day and, and, and ????? Not to mention the
concept of a
full ROM (AND TRAINING TO FAILURE) asbeing questionable.
In essence there is no consistent forcecurve configuration.
good as possible" fixed curves for machineswith all of their huge
attendant problems."
Simply(?) put, every exercise has a momentary measureableexternal
expressed athlete force curve, as a function of the above variables,which
describes
the max potential expressed force of the exerciser over, NOTonly the
entire ROM, if desired BUT PARTICULARLY AND MORE IMPORTANTLY,
RANGE OF
MOTION/MOVEMENT PHASE THAT GENERATES THE HIGHEST INTERNALMUSCLE FIBER
TENSIONS……………
………. AT THIS POINT TRAINING TAKEAWAYS
1. When using bands or chains increase the top of movementloading by 15%
on exercises with an ascending or increasing force profile,squats,
deadlifts
and presses during the rep. Drop of the chains 2 reps before failure and
continue……….
…………………. with intelligent training a max initial fast aspossible
concentric movement effort and equal, or increased eccentric effortfocus
-- again
at the EIC Eccentric-isometric
starts out highest and resists fatigue the longest equates tomaximal "fresh
"
fiber tensions at the first rep and max momentary fatiguingfiber tension
throughout the set.
Previously, max expressed and measureable forces,apparently regardless of
fiber tension potentials, werethe primary considerations for resistance
curves.
STRANGE BUT TRUE?
Resistance must remain highest during max potential FIBERTENSION movement
phases regardless of and/or at the expense of resistancelevels of weaker
useless, energy depleting fiber tension movement phases! As the typical
set
progresses and fatigue accumulates FULL ROM IS NOTONLY NOT BENEFICIAL BUT
MOST OFTEN DETRIMENTAL TO MAX TENSILE HYPERTROPHYAND HYPERTROPHY STRENGTH
GAINS.......
One study1…….demonstrated that … strength training at the shortest
weakest fiber tensionphase did not transfer to …….. strength gains at
this
movement phase. "Thegains in strength were at long muscle lengths, with
little
change instrength at the short test lengths. (WHICH ARE OFTEN WHERE THE
HIGHESTMEASUREABLE FORCES ARE, BENCH SQUAT—telle) As the training
involvedthe
same relative …….. loading of the muscle through the full range ofmovement
—
that is, in relation to the angle-torque relation— proportionalincreas
would be expected at all muscle lengths."
In other words the strength gains (hypertrophy?
muscle lengths despite (isometric) training andtesting over the full range
of movement.
A mild relatively safe (no extraeccentrics at start of set but only during
greatly fatigued phases), exampleusing the time tested 7,7,7 curl scenario
with changes:
* AT TRAINING - NOT MAX INTENSITIES stopping 1-2 reps short of total
failure at each stage.
1.the first 7-12 reps should be full curl movements, 2. thenext
7-12 reps should be bottom 1/2 of movements! 3. Next, shorter and shorter
partial movements until no movement isexpressed until movement stops.
4.Next cheating the bar 1/3 of way up and controlling the negative
furtherextends the set and benefits. 5. Lastly:
holding the bar in the stretched position until the thing drops.
…………..
……..Wasting huge amounts of (nervous?) system energy to"lock out"
presses, deadlifts or squats "locks you out" of highest fibertensions,
lower EIC
partial movements, extended set training. Forget the fullROM force reps
and do shorter and shorter EIC ROMS. This is "ALWAYS" during the "EICEIC"
Eccentric, Isometric,Concentri
………..The best exercise resistance equals,either as a percent of max
(eccentric) and max concentric effort force, thepotential highest internal
muscle fibers tensions NOT thehighest external force curve expressions.
This is "
ALWAYS"during the "EICEIC" Eccentric, Isometric, Concentricmovement
phase.
……….As fatigue accumulates the EIC ROM decreases indegrees, scope,
extent, all the way down from complete ROM to no movement andthe meagerest
of
eccentric tensions.
FOOTNOTES.
1. Graves JE, Pollock ML, JONES ARTHUR E, et al. Specificityof limited
range of motion variable resistance training. Med Sci Sports
Exerc1989;21:
7. Jones could produce no records to have derived his variableresistance
cam profiles. He claimed to have
1. measured the max isometric (resistance not moving) forceexpressions of
groups of untrained peoples at many positions over the entireROM (range of
movement/motion) AND with rests between efforts. This wasimpossible. This
is because for many back exercises the start of movementstrength is 4-5 X'
s
higher than end of movement strength. His resistanceincreases not
decreases
over the lifting ROM of every exercise.
2. he believed in increasing resistance to the "FULLYCONTRACTED" CIE top
position, where the interrelating tension developingactin/
were in greatest contact -- interface to the greatestdegree -- at
absolutely
the lowest fiber tensions……..
He carried thisidea: a. disregardingreams of even his own, if he
in fact did any, isometric test data..
b. disregarding the tension-length phenomenon firstdiscovered by Blitz in
18?? see above and
c. incorrectly misinterpreting the "ALL or NONE" process anda number of
other concepts.
I remember writing to him when I first redesigned the camsto control for
fatigue (somewhat) in the early '70's, I also remember writingto him with
my research machine data in the mid 80's -- no reply.
After I had built and researched the entire mess by the mideighties I
finally began to really understand the complexity and immensevariability
of
force, tension and resistance ………….
??????
Jerry Telle
Lakewood CO USA
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:00 pm (PST) . Posted by:
"Giovanni Ciriani" gciriani
Jerry,
Thanks for the bibliography. I think the study you reported is indirectly
supporting my suggestion: that fast-twitch fibers atrophy first.
The discussion is about which fiber type atrophies first. You said
slow-twitch, I said fast-twitch. I supported my statement with the
rationale that muscle recruitment progresses from slow-twitch muscle fibers
to fast-twitch muscle fibers*. This recruitment model is a fact: it is well
documented, accepted and reported in muscle physiology text books.
You on the other hand, produced a study that showed that in some case the
recruitment is reversed. The reversal happens in particular cases, during
excentric contractions (lengthening)
conclude that the most likely explanation is that in muscles that perform
different tasks during lengthening (than they perform during shortening),
may have a different innervation of part of their fibers, which would
explain the apparent inversion.
That is, when a lengthening action is required, for muscles that perform a
different type of task, a different part of the muscle is activated, one
that contains only fast-twitch fibers. It follows that in case of atrophy,
even for this type of task fast-twitch fibers atrophy first.
I don't know if after this 1989 study, more recent research has better
explained the mechanism, but it seems to me that it doesn't change the
conclusion on which fibers atrophy first.
Note*:
The progression includes first small slow-twitch muscle fibers, and then
adding to it progressively larger muscle fibers that have higher proportion
of fast-twitch.
Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
On Sat, Nov 17, 2012 at 11:52 PM, Jerry Telle <JRTELLE@aol.
> **
> > Jerry,
>
> > Can you please produce the bibliography showing reverse muscle
> recruitment?
> > A search on PubMed for Nardone (or Nardonne) and for reverse muscle
> > recruitment didn't produce any pertinent result.
> >
> > Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
> > P.S. your last two messages came directly to me and were not broadcast to
> > the Supertraining community.
> >
> >
>
> Giovannoi see ---JournalofPhysiol
> text-figure.
> Printed in Great Britain
>
> SELECTIVE RECRUITMENT OF HIGH-THRESHOLD HUMAN MOTOR UNITS DURING VOLUNTARY
> ISOTONIC LENGTHENING OF ACTIVE MUSCLES
>
> BYA.NARDONE,
>
> From theIstitutodiFisiol
> ViaMangiagalli32,
>
> (Received 8 March 1988)
>
> SUMMARY
>
> 1. We have investigated the possibility that voluntary muscle lengthening
> contractions can be performed by selective recruitment of fast-twitch motor
> units, accompanied by derecruitment ofslow-twitch motor units.
>
> 2. The behaviour of motor units in soleus, gastrocnemius lateralis and
> gastro- cnemius medialis muscles was studied during (a) controlled isotonic
> plantar flexion against a constant load (shortening contraction, S),
> maintained plantar flexion, or
> dorsalflexionresist
> L), (b) isometric increasing or decreasing plantar torque accomplished by
> graded contraction or relaxation of the triceps surae muscles, (c)
> isometric or isotonic ballistic contractions, and (d) periodic,
> quasi-sinusoidal isotonic contractions at different velocities. The above
> tasks were performed under visual control of foot position, without
> activation of antagonist muscles. The motor units discharging
> duringfootrotationw
> active as S, S + L and L. The units were also characterized according to
> both the level of isometric ramp plantar torque at which they were first
> recruited and the amplitude of their action potential.
>
> 3. 5unitswereneveracti
> sustained contraction between plantar and dorsal flexion. Most S + L units
> were active also during the maintenance phase and were slowly derecruited
> during lengthening; their behaviour during foot rotations was similar to
> that during isometric contractions or relaxations. L units were never
> active during either plantar or maintained flexion, but discharged during
> lengthening contraction in a given range of rotation velocities; the
> velocity of lengthening consistently influenced the firing frequency of
> these units. Such dependence on velocity was not observed in S+L units.
>
> 4. A correlationwasfound
> threshold torque ofrecruitment among althe units. In addition, the
> amplitudes of both the action potential and the threshold torque were
> higher in the case of L units than in the case of S and S + L units. Most L
> units could be voluntarily recruited only in the case of ballistic
> isometric or isotonic contraction.
>
> * To whom alcorrespondence should be addressed.
>
> 15-2
>
> 452 A.NVARDON.E, C.ROMA.N4OAND M.SCHIEIPAT-
>
> 5. Occasionally, L units were directly activated by electrical stimulation
> of motor fibres and their conduction velocity was in the higher range for
> ax-axons. In contrast, nerve stimulation could induce a reflex activation
> of S and S + L units.
>
> 6. The results suggest that a large proportion of high-threshold,
> fast-twitch motor units, most likely characterized by a short
> half-relaxation time. are active (luring lengthening contractions. The
> mechanical advantage of their selective recruitment and the possible neural
> mechanisms responsible for it are briefly considered.
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> > From: Giovanni Ciriani <Giovanni.Ciriani@
> > Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
> > Date: November 12, 2012 7:19:01 AM MST
> > To: Supertraining@
> > Reply-To: Supertraining@
> >
> > Jerry,
> > Can you please produce the bibliography showing reverse muscle
> recruitment?
> > A search on PubMed for Nardone (or Nardonne) and for reverse muscle
> > recruitment didn't produce any pertinent result.
> >
> > Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
> > P.S. your last two messages came directly to me and were not broadcast to
> > the Supertraining community.
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 10:47 PM, <jrtelle@aol.
> >
> > > oooppps my sincerest i got a new Mac and messages are everywhere in a
> > > strange fornat! I'm on my old one now so no excuses. I was so
> frustrated I
> > > waited to finish my message on this one.
> > >
> > > In particular Mr Giovanni Ciriani writes " From an intuitive point of
> > > progressive,
> > >
> > > view, because muscle (and force) recruitment is always
> > >
> > > NOT SO -- A FELLOW NAMED NARDONNE APPARENTLY REVERSED ORDERS IN
> > > ECCENTRIC ACTIONS AND SOME ONE ELSE? MIGHT HAVE DONE SO WITH EXPLOSIVE
> HIGH
> > > LOAD CONCENTRICS? I would
> > >
> > > expect that one always engages slow twitch fibers, but not always fast
> > > twitch fibers.THIS MAY NOT BE TRUE WITH SOME FIBER TYPES INDICATING AN
> > > INCREASE IN IIB FIBERS SIZE ?? AND NUMBER??As a consequence, it's not
> > > possible to engage fast twitch
> > > fibers without first engaging slow twitch ones. DON'T BET THE FARM
> YET! I
> > > HAVE REAMS OF STUDIES TO LOOK THROUGH
> > >
> > >
> > > Jerry Telle
> > > Lakewood CO USA
> > >
> >
> > >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thanks for the bibliography. I think the study you reported is indirectly
supporting my suggestion: that fast-twitch fibers atrophy first.
The discussion is about which fiber type atrophies first. You said
slow-twitch, I said fast-twitch. I supported my statement with the
rationale that muscle recruitment progresses from slow-twitch muscle fibers
to fast-twitch muscle fibers*. This recruitment model is a fact: it is well
documented, accepted and reported in muscle physiology text books.
You on the other hand, produced a study that showed that in some case the
recruitment is reversed. The reversal happens in particular cases, during
excentric contractions (lengthening)
conclude that the most likely explanation is that in muscles that perform
different tasks during lengthening (than they perform during shortening),
may have a different innervation of part of their fibers, which would
explain the apparent inversion.
That is, when a lengthening action is required, for muscles that perform a
different type of task, a different part of the muscle is activated, one
that contains only fast-twitch fibers. It follows that in case of atrophy,
even for this type of task fast-twitch fibers atrophy first.
I don't know if after this 1989 study, more recent research has better
explained the mechanism, but it seems to me that it doesn't change the
conclusion on which fibers atrophy first.
Note*:
The progression includes first small slow-twitch muscle fibers, and then
adding to it progressively larger muscle fibers that have higher proportion
of fast-twitch.
Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
On Sat, Nov 17, 2012 at 11:52 PM, Jerry Telle <JRTELLE@aol.
> **
> > Jerry,
>
> > Can you please produce the bibliography showing reverse muscle
> recruitment?
> > A search on PubMed for Nardone (or Nardonne) and for reverse muscle
> > recruitment didn't produce any pertinent result.
> >
> > Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
> > P.S. your last two messages came directly to me and were not broadcast to
> > the Supertraining community.
> >
> >
>
> Giovannoi see ---JournalofPhysiol
> text-figure.
> Printed in Great Britain
>
> SELECTIVE RECRUITMENT OF HIGH-THRESHOLD HUMAN MOTOR UNITS DURING VOLUNTARY
> ISOTONIC LENGTHENING OF ACTIVE MUSCLES
>
> BYA.NARDONE,
>
> From theIstitutodiFisiol
> ViaMangiagalli32,
>
> (Received 8 March 1988)
>
> SUMMARY
>
> 1. We have investigated the possibility that voluntary muscle lengthening
> contractions can be performed by selective recruitment of fast-twitch motor
> units, accompanied by derecruitment ofslow-twitch motor units.
>
> 2. The behaviour of motor units in soleus, gastrocnemius lateralis and
> gastro- cnemius medialis muscles was studied during (a) controlled isotonic
> plantar flexion against a constant load (shortening contraction, S),
> maintained plantar flexion, or
> dorsalflexionresist
> L), (b) isometric increasing or decreasing plantar torque accomplished by
> graded contraction or relaxation of the triceps surae muscles, (c)
> isometric or isotonic ballistic contractions, and (d) periodic,
> quasi-sinusoidal isotonic contractions at different velocities. The above
> tasks were performed under visual control of foot position, without
> activation of antagonist muscles. The motor units discharging
> duringfootrotationw
> active as S, S + L and L. The units were also characterized according to
> both the level of isometric ramp plantar torque at which they were first
> recruited and the amplitude of their action potential.
>
> 3. 5unitswereneveracti
> sustained contraction between plantar and dorsal flexion. Most S + L units
> were active also during the maintenance phase and were slowly derecruited
> during lengthening; their behaviour during foot rotations was similar to
> that during isometric contractions or relaxations. L units were never
> active during either plantar or maintained flexion, but discharged during
> lengthening contraction in a given range of rotation velocities; the
> velocity of lengthening consistently influenced the firing frequency of
> these units. Such dependence on velocity was not observed in S+L units.
>
> 4. A correlationwasfound
> threshold torque ofrecruitment among althe units. In addition, the
> amplitudes of both the action potential and the threshold torque were
> higher in the case of L units than in the case of S and S + L units. Most L
> units could be voluntarily recruited only in the case of ballistic
> isometric or isotonic contraction.
>
> * To whom alcorrespondence should be addressed.
>
> 15-2
>
> 452 A.NVARDON.E, C.ROMA.N4OAND M.SCHIEIPAT-
>
> 5. Occasionally, L units were directly activated by electrical stimulation
> of motor fibres and their conduction velocity was in the higher range for
> ax-axons. In contrast, nerve stimulation could induce a reflex activation
> of S and S + L units.
>
> 6. The results suggest that a large proportion of high-threshold,
> fast-twitch motor units, most likely characterized by a short
> half-relaxation time. are active (luring lengthening contractions. The
> mechanical advantage of their selective recruitment and the possible neural
> mechanisms responsible for it are briefly considered.
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> > From: Giovanni Ciriani <Giovanni.Ciriani@
> > Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
> > Date: November 12, 2012 7:19:01 AM MST
> > To: Supertraining@
> > Reply-To: Supertraining@
> >
> > Jerry,
> > Can you please produce the bibliography showing reverse muscle
> recruitment?
> > A search on PubMed for Nardone (or Nardonne) and for reverse muscle
> > recruitment didn't produce any pertinent result.
> >
> > Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
> > P.S. your last two messages came directly to me and were not broadcast to
> > the Supertraining community.
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 10:47 PM, <jrtelle@aol.
> >
> > > oooppps my sincerest i got a new Mac and messages are everywhere in a
> > > strange fornat! I'm on my old one now so no excuses. I was so
> frustrated I
> > > waited to finish my message on this one.
> > >
> > > In particular Mr Giovanni Ciriani writes " From an intuitive point of
> > > progressive,
> > >
> > > view, because muscle (and force) recruitment is always
> > >
> > > NOT SO -- A FELLOW NAMED NARDONNE APPARENTLY REVERSED ORDERS IN
> > > ECCENTRIC ACTIONS AND SOME ONE ELSE? MIGHT HAVE DONE SO WITH EXPLOSIVE
> HIGH
> > > LOAD CONCENTRICS? I would
> > >
> > > expect that one always engages slow twitch fibers, but not always fast
> > > twitch fibers.THIS MAY NOT BE TRUE WITH SOME FIBER TYPES INDICATING AN
> > > INCREASE IN IIB FIBERS SIZE ?? AND NUMBER??As a consequence, it's not
> > > possible to engage fast twitch
> > > fibers without first engaging slow twitch ones. DON'T BET THE FARM
> YET! I
> > > HAVE REAMS OF STUDIES TO LOOK THROUGH
> > >
> > >
> > > Jerry Telle
> > > Lakewood CO USA
> > >
> >
> > >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:01 pm (PST) . Posted by:
"Perez, Miguel" metalhead2_mx
All,
I've really gotten into smoked meat lately. By that I mean meats smoked at home, not commercially "smoked" foods with nitrates and what have you. Just meat cooked at a low temperature over a long period, and infused with plenty of hardwood smoke. Now, I know that studies show strong evidence that commercial "smoked" foods with the aforementioned chemicals added are a no-no, but what about simple, authentic, homemade barbecue with no harmful chemical additives? Is there any literature out there that looks into it, and any potential adverse effects on health?
PS - Please notice the distinction between barbecue (meat cooked with low indirect heat in the presence of woodsmoke) and grilling (meat cooked at a high temperature directly over the heat source with juices dripping on the heat source and vaporizing). I am talking about the former, NOT the latter.
Miguel Pérez
Reynosa, Mexico
____________
Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail and any attachments are intended only for the use of those to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential and prohibited from further disclosure under law. If you have received this e-mail in error, its review, use, retention and/or distribution is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message and any attachments.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I've really gotten into smoked meat lately. By that I mean meats smoked at home, not commercially "smoked" foods with nitrates and what have you. Just meat cooked at a low temperature over a long period, and infused with plenty of hardwood smoke. Now, I know that studies show strong evidence that commercial "smoked" foods with the aforementioned chemicals added are a no-no, but what about simple, authentic, homemade barbecue with no harmful chemical additives? Is there any literature out there that looks into it, and any potential adverse effects on health?
PS - Please notice the distinction between barbecue (meat cooked with low indirect heat in the presence of woodsmoke) and grilling (meat cooked at a high temperature directly over the heat source with juices dripping on the heat source and vaporizing). I am talking about the former, NOT the latter.
Miguel Pérez
Reynosa, Mexico
____________
Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail and any attachments are intended only for the use of those to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential and prohibited from further disclosure under law. If you have received this e-mail in error, its review, use, retention and/or distribution is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message and any attachments.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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