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Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:14 am (PST) . Posted by:
"Ralph Giarnella" ragiarn
The problem with the graph you have cited is that there is no indication as to what is the actual RPM.
My contention is that the peak Type II fiber recruitment is most likely in the 50-60 rpm range which would correspond to point D. When you compare point B to point C you are comparing two different efforts and therefore two different power outputs.
The 50-60 rpm is a range often used in climbing very steep hills. Cruising range on a for a seasoned cyclists is between 80-90 rpm and sprinting range is in the 120-140 range.
Ralph Giarnella MD
Southington Ct. USA
________________________________
From: Giovanni Ciriani <Giovanni.Ciriani@Gmail.com >
To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
Ralph,
What you wrote is presumably true for the particular level of power
developed.
However, you seem to imply that an increase of RPM while developing the
same power, always decreases the recruitment of fiber type II. Depending on
the situation, it could be quite the opposite. Consider for instance the
figure you can download at http://bit.ly/ZiUgB4. It depicts power vs speed
(or RPM) as it has been shown by published research papers.
The case you describe is what we see going from point A to B: same power
and RPM increases; recruitment of muscle fiber type II decreases. However,
if instead we consider going from point B to C, quite the opposite
recruitment takes place: same power; the RPM increases; recruitment of
muscle fiber type II increases.
Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@yahoo.com > wrote:
> **
>
>
>
>
> Giovanni wrote:
>
> The indications give for higher/lower cadence utilization and slow/fast
> fiber utilization needs to be put in the contest of power (wattage)
> developed, otherwise it's meaningless. Actually if you are pedaling at the
> optimal cadence for each given wattage, the lower the wattage, the lower
> the cadence and the lower the percentage of fast twitch fiber utilized.
> Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
>
> I should been more precise in my answer. In both instances I was assuming
> the same power output.
>
> If I cycle at 150 watts at a cadence of 60 rpm I will use more type II a
> fibers than if I cycle at at 150 watts at 90 rpm. The lower cadence
> requires more torque per stroke than the higher cadence.
>
>
> Ralph Giarnella MD
> Southington Ct. USA
>
> ________________________________
> From: Giovanni Ciriani <Giovanni.Ciriani@Gmail.com >
> To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2012 5:14 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
>
>
>
> Ralph,
> The indications give for higher/lower cadence utilization and slow/fast
> fiber utilization needs to be put in the contest of power (wattage)
> developed, otherwise it's meaningless. Actually if you are pedaling at the
> optimal cadence for each given wattage, the lower the wattage, the lower
> the cadence and the lower the percentage of fast twitch fiber utilized.
> Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
>
> On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 1:30 PM, Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@yahoo.com >
> wrote:
>
> > **
>
> >
> >
> > JRT wrote
> >
> >
> > "Endurance training fatigues fibers to only a certain % at very slow
> > rates?"
> >
> > I am not sure that I understand what you mean by that statement.
> >
> > My primary training is on a bicycle . The most common cadence for me is
> > in the 80-90 rpm. Each leg does 80 - 90 reps/minute. A slow cadence is in
> > the 50-60 rpm. At the higher cadence type I fibers are the predominant
> > fibers being utilized. At the lower cadence more type IIa fibers are
> > utilized.
> >
> > A beginner will have difficulty riding 30-60 minutes at either cadence.
> > With training seasoned cyclists can ride 5-6 hrs continuously. It is
> > obvious that training increases time to fatigue. However the same
> training
> > also increases power output. A beginner will have difficulty sustaining a
> > continuous pace at 120-130 watts for 30-40 minutes. A seasoned cyclist
> can
> > sustain power ratings of 250-350+watts for 5-6 hrs.
> >
> >
> > Ralph Giarnella MD
> > Southington Ct. USA
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: "JRTELLE@AOL.COM " <JRTELLE@AOL.COM >
> > To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2012 1:45 PM
> >
> > Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi John
> >
> > SEE BELOW
> >
> > John Casler writes:
> >
> > I am a bit confused with the "assumption" that a muscle requires training
> > to
> > fatigue or exhaustion for a strength or hypertrophic adaptation.
> >
> > telle - right although there MAY be something to training at max
> momentary
> > to a high degree of fatigue in as short a time span as possible. Many
> have
> > suggested this Siff? Zatsiorsky ------
> >
> > Casler writes: It is my understanding that the two primary stimuli to
> > muscle
> > conditioning/adaptation for the qualities of Strength and Hypertrophy are
> > TENSION Levels and amount of WORK performed at those levels. The overload
> > parameters for these would be the level of Tension, and the Volume of
> Work
> > performed at those Tension Levels.
> >
> > telle -- so does one do 95% of max reps X's 10-15 sets. Or 87% or 85%, or
> > --------? with research suggesting that 80%+ is best for high threshold
> > fibers? at max concentric speeds and ? eccentric speeds or w/ overload
> > eccentrics which time and time again prove effective for hypertrophy! And
> > do we know how far high threshold fibers are fatigued at 80%+? Perhaps
> they
> > fatigue down to 40% or lower max tensions. Drop sets have proved
> effective
> > with high momentary tensions surely past 40% for the high threshold!
> >
> > Casler writes: A secondary metabolic stimulus would be fatigue/exhaustion
> > but the
> > adaptation to that stimulus would be "ENDURANCE" and not strength or
> > hypertrophy.
> >
> > telle-- depends on the rate and level of fatigue. Endurance training
> > fatigues fibers to only a certain % at very slow rates?! Big difference
> > maybe?
> >
> > Casler writes: So if you want to cause the adaptation of strength and or
> > hypertrophy, you
> > would employ "HIGH TENSIONS" and ADEQUATE WORK at those tensions to
> create
> > OVERLOAD. Attempting to cause fatigue or exhaustion would be more to
> > stimulating metabolic endurance.
> >
> > telle -- Again what are "HIGH TENSIONS" and ADEQUATE WORK"? at those
> > tensions. Much contrary evidence I believe though don't have time now to
> > look it up.
> >
> > Casler writes: It seems that the "set to failure" idea has somehow been
> > assumed, when in
> > fact, it doesn't apply (in any way I can see) to building Strength,
> Speed,
> > or Hypertrophy. If one also wishes to cause an endurance adaptation, then
> > go to fatigue or exhaustion.
> >
> > telle -- One does not need to train to failure ever really. For a huge
> > number of reasons it is quite possible that training to 2 reps short of
> > failure, or initiating lower phase partials instead of expending huge
> > amounts of neural energies "locking out" failure or near failure loads --
> > AT TOP END PHASES OF MOVEMENTS THAT NO LONGER CAN DEVELOP ANY MEANINGFUL
> > TENSIONS -- if they ever really did [TENSION - LENGTH AND ASYMMETRICAL
> > TENSION/FORCE FATIGUE RATES] conserves vast amounts of neural energies
> for
> > further high momentary high tension -- like drop sets -- work and for
> > recovery I sent, I hope my opinions of these thoughts but may have to
> > resend (OR SEND FOR FIRST TIME)
> >
> > Jerry Telle
> >
> > Lakewood CO USA
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My contention is that the peak Type II fiber recruitment is most likely in the 50-60 rpm range which would correspond to point D. When you compare point B to point C you are comparing two different efforts and therefore two different power outputs.
The 50-60 rpm is a range often used in climbing very steep hills. Cruising range on a for a seasoned cyclists is between 80-90 rpm and sprinting range is in the 120-140 range.
Ralph Giarnella MD
Southington Ct. USA
____________
From: Giovanni Ciriani <Giovanni.Ciriani@
To: Supertraining@
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
Ralph,
What you wrote is presumably true for the particular level of power
developed.
However, you seem to imply that an increase of RPM while developing the
same power, always decreases the recruitment of fiber type II. Depending on
the situation, it could be quite the opposite. Consider for instance the
figure you can download at http://bit.ly/
(or RPM) as it has been shown by published research papers.
The case you describe is what we see going from point A to B: same power
and RPM increases; recruitment of muscle fiber type II decreases. However,
if instead we consider going from point B to C, quite the opposite
recruitment takes place: same power; the RPM increases; recruitment of
muscle fiber type II increases.
Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@yahoo.
> **
>
>
>
>
> Giovanni wrote:
>
> The indications give for higher/lower cadence utilization and slow/fast
> fiber utilization needs to be put in the contest of power (wattage)
> developed, otherwise it's meaningless. Actually if you are pedaling at the
> optimal cadence for each given wattage, the lower the wattage, the lower
> the cadence and the lower the percentage of fast twitch fiber utilized.
> Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
>
> I should been more precise in my answer. In both instances I was assuming
> the same power output.
>
> If I cycle at 150 watts at a cadence of 60 rpm I will use more type II a
> fibers than if I cycle at at 150 watts at 90 rpm. The lower cadence
> requires more torque per stroke than the higher cadence.
>
>
> Ralph Giarnella MD
> Southington Ct. USA
>
> ____________
> From: Giovanni Ciriani <Giovanni.Ciriani@
> To: Supertraining@
> Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2012 5:14 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
>
>
>
> Ralph,
> The indications give for higher/lower cadence utilization and slow/fast
> fiber utilization needs to be put in the contest of power (wattage)
> developed, otherwise it's meaningless. Actually if you are pedaling at the
> optimal cadence for each given wattage, the lower the wattage, the lower
> the cadence and the lower the percentage of fast twitch fiber utilized.
> Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
>
> On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 1:30 PM, Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@yahoo.
> wrote:
>
> > **
>
> >
> >
> > JRT wrote
> >
> >
> > "Endurance training fatigues fibers to only a certain % at very slow
> > rates?"
> >
> > I am not sure that I understand what you mean by that statement.
> >
> > My primary training is on a bicycle . The most common cadence for me is
> > in the 80-90 rpm. Each leg does 80 - 90 reps/minute. A slow cadence is in
> > the 50-60 rpm. At the higher cadence type I fibers are the predominant
> > fibers being utilized. At the lower cadence more type IIa fibers are
> > utilized.
> >
> > A beginner will have difficulty riding 30-60 minutes at either cadence.
> > With training seasoned cyclists can ride 5-6 hrs continuously. It is
> > obvious that training increases time to fatigue. However the same
> training
> > also increases power output. A beginner will have difficulty sustaining a
> > continuous pace at 120-130 watts for 30-40 minutes. A seasoned cyclist
> can
> > sustain power ratings of 250-350+watts for 5-6 hrs.
> >
> >
> > Ralph Giarnella MD
> > Southington Ct. USA
> >
> > ____________
> > From: "JRTELLE@AOL.
> > To: Supertraining@
> > Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2012 1:45 PM
> >
> > Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi John
> >
> > SEE BELOW
> >
> > John Casler writes:
> >
> > I am a bit confused with the "assumption" that a muscle requires training
> > to
> > fatigue or exhaustion for a strength or hypertrophic adaptation.
> >
> > telle - right although there MAY be something to training at max
> momentary
> > to a high degree of fatigue in as short a time span as possible. Many
> have
> > suggested this Siff? Zatsiorsky ------
> >
> > Casler writes: It is my understanding that the two primary stimuli to
> > muscle
> > conditioning/
> > TENSION Levels and amount of WORK performed at those levels. The overload
> > parameters for these would be the level of Tension, and the Volume of
> Work
> > performed at those Tension Levels.
> >
> > telle -- so does one do 95% of max reps X's 10-15 sets. Or 87% or 85%, or
> > --------? with research suggesting that 80%+ is best for high threshold
> > fibers? at max concentric speeds and ? eccentric speeds or w/ overload
> > eccentrics which time and time again prove effective for hypertrophy! And
> > do we know how far high threshold fibers are fatigued at 80%+? Perhaps
> they
> > fatigue down to 40% or lower max tensions. Drop sets have proved
> effective
> > with high momentary tensions surely past 40% for the high threshold!
> >
> > Casler writes: A secondary metabolic stimulus would be fatigue/exhaustion
> > but the
> > adaptation to that stimulus would be "ENDURANCE" and not strength or
> > hypertrophy.
> >
> > telle-- depends on the rate and level of fatigue. Endurance training
> > fatigues fibers to only a certain % at very slow rates?! Big difference
> > maybe?
> >
> > Casler writes: So if you want to cause the adaptation of strength and or
> > hypertrophy, you
> > would employ "HIGH TENSIONS" and ADEQUATE WORK at those tensions to
> create
> > OVERLOAD. Attempting to cause fatigue or exhaustion would be more to
> > stimulating metabolic endurance.
> >
> > telle -- Again what are "HIGH TENSIONS" and ADEQUATE WORK"? at those
> > tensions. Much contrary evidence I believe though don't have time now to
> > look it up.
> >
> > Casler writes: It seems that the "set to failure" idea has somehow been
> > assumed, when in
> > fact, it doesn't apply (in any way I can see) to building Strength,
> Speed,
> > or Hypertrophy. If one also wishes to cause an endurance adaptation, then
> > go to fatigue or exhaustion.
> >
> > telle -- One does not need to train to failure ever really. For a huge
> > number of reasons it is quite possible that training to 2 reps short of
> > failure, or initiating lower phase partials instead of expending huge
> > amounts of neural energies "locking out" failure or near failure loads --
> > AT TOP END PHASES OF MOVEMENTS THAT NO LONGER CAN DEVELOP ANY MEANINGFUL
> > TENSIONS -- if they ever really did [TENSION - LENGTH AND ASYMMETRICAL
> > TENSION/FORCE FATIGUE RATES] conserves vast amounts of neural energies
> for
> > further high momentary high tension -- like drop sets -- work and for
> > recovery I sent, I hope my opinions of these thoughts but may have to
> > resend (OR SEND FOR FIRST TIME)
> >
> > Jerry Telle
> >
> > Lakewood CO USA
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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