Jerry,
You indicated that slow twitch fibers are the first to atrophy. I do not
think there is conclusive evidence. I think there have been studies
pointing out to either hypothesis: fast twitch atrophy first, or slow
twitch atrophy first.

There are still so many things we do not know about the body's physiology
that I'm not surprised we still do not have a conclusive understanding of
atrophy.

I remember reading that when one is forced to inactivity because of an
injury, there is a staggering loss of fast twitch fiber (maybe just force,
I'm not sure), in the first week alone, of 5%. From an intuitive point of
view, because muscle (and force) recruitment is always progressive, I would
expect that one always engages slow twitch fibers, but not always fast
twitch fibers. As a consequence, it's not possible to engage fast twitch
fibers without first engaging slow twitch ones.

But intuition has failed me before, especially about phenomena I do not
fully understand.

Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA

On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 8:17 AM, <JRTELLE@aol.com> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Thanks Brock,
>
> Here's why.
>
> You say, "I guess my question in all of this is - what is the purpose of
> attempting to hypertrophy the slow-twitch fibers anyway? They have far less
> capacity for growth, so it is unlikely to have much impact on physique
> development,
>
> --telle. Have not re researched this yet but do remember there is some %
> of hypertrophy significant enough for hypertrophy athlete';s attention.
> But, in much likelihood, the typical hypertrophy routine will hypertrophy
> these to 80%?? of their potential -- maybe meaning that the additional
> efforts required will significantly negatively deplete neural recovery
> energies? Slow twitch tempo's of 4080?, for me, are very taxing.
>
> Brock. " and if it is to possibly increase their force capacity, that's
> not really what they're there for anyway."
>
> telle. yes and no sort of. It is "POSSIBLE" they increase force capacities
> and they may contribute significantly to force expressions -- perhaps as
> the muscle fatigues during sprinting that is -- rate of tension generating
> capacities are fast enough to contribute to high power events" ??
>
> And their purpose is pretty much universal in that they are the first to
> atrophy w/ disuse and thus are a function of "any" necessary activity.
>
> Brock, "I would be more inclined to say, if they hypertrophy, great, but
> if not, you probably shouldn't leave much sleep over it.
>
> telle -- I would be greatly inclined to agree!
>
> Jerry Telle
> Lakewood CO USA
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brock Leggins <brockleggins@hotmail.com>
> To: supertraining <supertraining@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:15 am
> Subject: RE: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
>
> I guess my question in all of this is - what is the purpose of attempting
> to hypertrophy the slow-twitch fibers anyway? They have far less capacity
> for growth, so it is unlikely to have much impact on physique development,
> and if it is to possibly increase their force capacity, that's not really
> what they're there for anyway. I would be more inclined to say, if they
> hypertrophy, great, but if not, you probably shouldn't leave much sleep
> over it.
>
> To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
> From: JRTELLE@AOL.COM
> Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 01:57:44 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
>
> Nice reply Ralph,
>
> Points of my confusion: you say, "All voluntary muscles fibers fatigue
> even Type I." I probably agree with the following caveats. I have tried to
> totally, w/ the same eccentric concentric resistance attempting to max
> resistance over both ROM's by varying body positions, fatigue all fibers at
> once -- cant be done -- there's always some resistance that can be moved or
> resisted?! When it seemed that slow twitch had finally had it -- some
> higher threshold force would manifest?! And so on -- with immense amounts
> (for me anyway) of pain accruing.
>
> I seem to recall Mel saying pretty much what you mentioned about endurance
> athletes cycling fibers to maintain tension. I believe Mel also
> implied/said that higher threshold fibers "orchestrate", also much like
> various sections of an orchestra. Some where in my past I? had research
> that indicated this also -- especially the very lowest threshold at 90+
> secs. And could never totally concentrically below 2-5% max!? My brother
> accidently lost my last 2 copies of the 1993? "Beyond 2001" but should have
> it on a computer file somewhere.
>
> Regardless, to what extent slow twitch can be hypertrophied beyond a
> certain % has probably not been conclusively established, though for an
> hypertrophy athlete it is important.
>
> You say "During high intensity work such as weight lifting maximum force
> is achieved through synchronous recruitment of as many muscle fibers as
> possible". I'm sure you meant this to be a somewhat general statement in
> that "pure" synchrony is only approached as total muscle reaches high
> percents of fatigue, as much damage often results as one approaches
> "involuntary", life threatening maximums.
>
> And finally you say -- "During all out max rep ATP and CP are the primary
> source of energy. Depending on training state there is less than 20 seconds
> worth of ATP and CP available stored for instant energy, after that the ATP
> has to be replenished during recovery". -- Again, we need to be aware that
> "during all out max rep"s -- during initial fresh voluntary exertions
> estimates range from 65- 85% involuntary max or 85% of involuntary fibers
> at varying degrees of summation/rate coding and synchronicity (or some
> thing in between) are exerted.
>
> I don't remember exactly to what extent highest threshold IIb'-a's are
> summated and/or synchronized but wrote recently --- MISPLACING THE SOURCE
> OF COURSE - but here it is
>
> SYNCHRONIZATION TENSION/FORCE TOTAL MUSCLE. Total muscle tension force is
> partly a function of basically howmany fibers are recruited at NEARLY the
> same moment. This never happens all atonce at first because the tension
> force would actually tear the muscle tendonsfrom their moorings (unless the
> muscle is fatigued) --- QUOTE -- (I'm looking for the source now --
> midnite).
>
> "If you perform asub-maximal task long enough to induce fatigue, the loss
> of force will becompensated by increased recruitment synchronization and
> increased rate coding (AND SUMMATION) of the recruited fibers. If a fiber
> is creating a specific required tension andis at a frequency which induces
> it to create 75% of it's maximum for example,as it fatigues, the SPS
> frequency will increase to keep it at that tensionlevel. Eventually, rate
> coding (AND SYNCHRONIZATION) will be maximized and the fiber (ENTIRE
> MUSCLE) will not be ableto continue to display that tension level".
>
> I would add that if you perform max voluntary TASK that only 1 will be
> able to be performed (unless you can suddenly tap into that involuntary
> reserve -- which one would think you could since there is no additional
> weight involved -- that is there are unused (maybe not enough for requisite
> tensions) -- then again a 100% max effort taking about 2.5 seconds
> concentric depletes an enormous amount of momentary tensions -- much of it
> neural.
>
> Will have to google slow twitch hypertrophy.
>
> Jerry Telle
>
> Lakewood CO USA
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@yahoo.com>
>
> To: Supertraining <Supertraining@yahoogroups.com>
>
> Sent: Tue, Nov 6, 2012 11:28 am
>
> Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
>
> The only muscle fibers that never fatigue are the heart muscles fibers.
> All voluntary muscles fibers fatigue even Type I.
>
> The difference is that Type I fibers take longer to reach their limit.
> Mitochondrial density and capillary density are determining factors in how
> long it takes for voluntary muscle fibers to fatigue.
>
> Type II fibers have significantly less mitochondria than Type I fibers.
> Specific endurance training will increase both mitochondrial density as
> well as capillary density in type I fibers.
>
> During high intensity work such as weight lifting maximum force is
> achieved through synchronous recruitment of as many muscle fibers as
> possible.
>
> The firing pattern of endurance athletes becomes asynchronous. During
> continuous contractions, some units are firing while others recover,
> providing a built in recovery period. The muscle fibers act some what like
> a circular relay race or a pace line in bicycle racing.. When one group
> tires another works while the first recovers and when second group tires a
> third takes over etc and this continues until it is the turn of the first
> group again.
>
> The rapidity of fatigue also depends on what the primary source of energy
> is during the activity.
>
> During all out max rep ATP and CP are the primary source of energy.
> Depending on training state there is less than 20 seconds worth of ATP and
> CP available stored for instant energy, after that the ATP has to be
> replenished during recovery.
>
> Ralph Giarnella MD
>
> Southington Ct. USA
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Phil Caraher <pcaraher1@nc.rr.com>
>
> To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
>
> Sent: Monday, November 5, 2012 4:16 PM
>
> Subject: RE: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
>
> It is my understanding the motor units in postural muscles will share the
>
> burden so that no one unit is always active which would prevent fatigue and
>
> maintain posture.
>
> Phil Caraher, DPT, MS, CSCS, PES, CES
>
> Physical Therapist
>
> Chapel Hill, NC
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Supertraining@yahoogroups.com]
>
> On Behalf Of Giovanni Ciriani
>
> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 2:17 PM
>
> To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
>
> Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
>
> I do not understand the concept of fatigueing a fiber to train it. Mt
>
> understanding is that fibers adapt (train) because there is microdamage,
>
> which probably can happen even without fatigue to occur. In addition I
>
> thought that 100% type I fibers would be able to produce a certain force ad
>
> infinitum, such as postural fibers. If that was not the case then one would
>
> slump down on a desk after a few minutes because the muscles of the back
>
> were fatigued.
>
> Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
>
> On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 2:02 AM, <JRTELLE@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > **
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Greetings all.
>
> >
>
> > I received this message from an obviously experienced trainer.
>
> >
>
> > Jerry:
>
> >
>
> > Iread in the summer issue of MILO that you determined that a Type 1
>
> > slow twitchmuscle fiber required a time under tension of 90 to 240
>
> > seconds to fatigue thatparticular fiber. From that I deduce that since
>
> > a muscle--say a leg or ashoulder one isn't one-hundred percent fast or
>
> > slow twitch, to adequatelyfatigue and build that muscle both types of
>
> > fibers need to be exercised. Ifthis is so, then I can only see a
>
> > couple of possibilities to attack the slowtwitch; lighter weight and
>
> higher reps or super slow reps.
>
> > Withsuper slow in order to reach the 90 second threshold would
>
> > probably necessitatea lower weight as well. Am I barking up the wrong
>
> > tree? If not, what are yoursuggestions for incorporating fatiguing
>
> > both types of fibers in a singleworkout?
>
> >
>
> > Ithank you for your time and effort in responding to this request.
>
> >
>
> > I responded.
>
> >
>
> > Right tree, rightbark -- maybe,
>
> >
>
> > I havephilosophically fought with these slow twitchers forever. At one
>
> > point I wasdoing drop sets starting with a IIb weight, then 2 - IIa
>
> > drop sets, then superslow up - two 120+ seconds. SEEMED to work. This
>
> > I termed "top down" training!Recent research seems to indicate that
>
> > exertion should last 50 - 55 seconds(for type II's???) then cessation!
>
> >
>
> > The type onestheoretically via the "size" principle are worked the
>
> > entire 55seconds also which is a pretty good stimulation -- maybe?
>
> >
>
> > Another that Ithink maybe better is to work the type II's on one day
>
> > and 3 days later theI's. The ones protocol being starting with a 30%
>
> > of 1 RM Slow moes at 4(to8)2(or more)40. that's 4240 or 4 down 2 at
>
> > the isometric bottom getting a superstretch - 4 up - 0 at top
>
> > isometric position. Here is 1
>
> > protocol:
>
> >
>
> > 1. 6240 to failure
>
> > 2. thenimmediately after failure 40X+0 the X+ being an explosive
>
> > positive up and 4down and no stop at bottom. The fascinating thing
>
> > being the explosive strengthleft after total slow moe failure. Should
>
> > be able to get
>
> > 2 maybe 3 xtra reps -very painful.
>
> > 3. 1 drop set ofsame protocol.
>
> > This should getyou to 90+ seconds which may be good enough? I have
>
> > done drops to very lowloads -- so low that failure could not be
>
> > attained - it would seem at these lowloads certain slow (or fast
>
> > fibers) rest then contribute as the others nowrest??
>
> >
>
> > This I termed "bottomup" training.
>
> >
>
> > And finally I havetried Eccentric sets and drops to near total fiber
>
> > failure at very low loads-- a very taxingtraining protocol which
>
> > should be gradually built up to.
>
> >
>
> > I, somewhere, haveresearch on this matter which will try to find and
> send!
>
> >
>
> > Thanx for thequestion. It always helps me to write out my current
>
> > beliefs as it clarifiessame and most often leads to new ideas.
>
> >
>
> > I should have added. When concentric failure is reached do slow moe
>
> > bottom of movement -- end of eccentric, isometric, start of concentric
>
> partials.
>
> > Fiber tension is always greatest there (think tension-force
>
> > phenomenon), lasts the longest as fatigue accumulates(my research and
>
> > highly respected researchers Komi and Hakkinen from Finland) and is a
>
> > great highest possible tension set extender not wasting valuable
>
> > mental energy on uselessly low, detrimental or non existent fiber
> tensions
>
> attempting full ROM movements.
>
> > Do partials to complete failure that is less and less movement to zero
>
> > -- but not max intensity (totally psyched out -- competition effort)!
>
> >
>
> > Jerry
>
> >
>
> > Any remarks? -- Negative remarks welcomed!
>
> >
>
> > Jerry Telle
>
> > lakewood CO USA
>
> >
>
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ------------------------------------
>
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>
> Sign all letters with full name & city of residence if you wish them to be
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>
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1b

Re: Slow twitch hypertrophy.--Brock

Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:22 am (PST) . Posted by:

"sebascoles" sebascoles

Apparently, there is no conclusive evidence. But studies have shown that the percentaje of fast twitch fibers decreace progressively with age, although this has nothing to do with forced inactivity.

If forced inactivity occurs, then the effects of inmovilization (if nedded because of an injury) are dependent on muscle lenght during the inmobilization. The inmobilization in a lengthened position has a less deleterious effect.

There is a short but very specific mention to this issue in the Frankel and Nordin book "Basic Biomechanics of the Musculoskeletal System". I don´t know if it is allowed to post here an extract of a book but if there is no problem, I can share it.

More information can be found in:

Bosco C (2000): "La Fuerza Muscular" (I couldn´t find an English edition, it seems it has only been published in spanish and italian)

Wilmore J, Costill D (1994): "Physiology of sports and exercise" Human Kinetics Publishers

Larson L, Grymbi G, Karlsson J (1979): " Muscle strength and speed of movement in relation to age and muscle morphology" Journal of Applied Physiology Mar; 46(3):451-456

Sebastián Scoles
Buenos Aires, Argentina

--- In Supertraining@yahoogroups.com, Giovanni Ciriani <Giovanni.Ciriani@...> wrote:
>
> Jerry,
> You indicated that slow twitch fibers are the first to atrophy. I do not
> think there is conclusive evidence. I think there have been studies
> pointing out to either hypothesis: fast twitch atrophy first, or slow
> twitch atrophy first.
>
> There are still so many things we do not know about the body's physiology
> that I'm not surprised we still do not have a conclusive understanding of
> atrophy.
>
> I remember reading that when one is forced to inactivity because of an
> injury, there is a staggering loss of fast twitch fiber (maybe just force,
> I'm not sure), in the first week alone, of 5%. From an intuitive point of
> view, because muscle (and force) recruitment is always progressive, I would
> expect that one always engages slow twitch fibers, but not always fast
> twitch fibers. As a consequence, it's not possible to engage fast twitch
> fibers without first engaging slow twitch ones.
>
> But intuition has failed me before, especially about phenomena I do not
> fully understand.
>
> Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
>
> On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 8:17 AM, <JRTELLE@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Thanks Brock,
> >
> > Here's why.
> >
> > You say, "I guess my question in all of this is - what is the purpose of
> > attempting to hypertrophy the slow-twitch fibers anyway? They have far less
> > capacity for growth, so it is unlikely to have much impact on physique
> > development,
> >
> > --telle. Have not re researched this yet but do remember there is some %
> > of hypertrophy significant enough for hypertrophy athlete';s attention.
> > But, in much likelihood, the typical hypertrophy routine will hypertrophy
> > these to 80%?? of their potential -- maybe meaning that the additional
> > efforts required will significantly negatively deplete neural recovery
> > energies? Slow twitch tempo's of 4080?, for me, are very taxing.
> >
> > Brock. " and if it is to possibly increase their force capacity, that's
> > not really what they're there for anyway."
> >
> > telle. yes and no sort of. It is "POSSIBLE" they increase force capacities
> > and they may contribute significantly to force expressions -- perhaps as
> > the muscle fatigues during sprinting that is -- rate of tension generating
> > capacities are fast enough to contribute to high power events" ??
> >
> > And their purpose is pretty much universal in that they are the first to
> > atrophy w/ disuse and thus are a function of "any" necessary activity.
> >
> > Brock, "I would be more inclined to say, if they hypertrophy, great, but
> > if not, you probably shouldn't leave much sleep over it.
> >
> > telle -- I would be greatly inclined to agree!
> >
> > Jerry Telle
> > Lakewood CO USA
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Brock Leggins <brockleggins@...>
> > To: supertraining <supertraining@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:15 am
> > Subject: RE: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
> >
> > I guess my question in all of this is - what is the purpose of attempting
> > to hypertrophy the slow-twitch fibers anyway? They have far less capacity
> > for growth, so it is unlikely to have much impact on physique development,
> > and if it is to possibly increase their force capacity, that's not really
> > what they're there for anyway. I would be more inclined to say, if they
> > hypertrophy, great, but if not, you probably shouldn't leave much sleep
> > over it.
> >
> > To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
> > From: JRTELLE@...
> > Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 01:57:44 -0500
> > Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
> >
> > Nice reply Ralph,
> >
> > Points of my confusion: you say, "All voluntary muscles fibers fatigue
> > even Type I." I probably agree with the following caveats. I have tried to
> > totally, w/ the same eccentric concentric resistance attempting to max
> > resistance over both ROM's by varying body positions, fatigue all fibers at
> > once -- cant be done -- there's always some resistance that can be moved or
> > resisted?! When it seemed that slow twitch had finally had it -- some
> > higher threshold force would manifest?! And so on -- with immense amounts
> > (for me anyway) of pain accruing.
> >
> > I seem to recall Mel saying pretty much what you mentioned about endurance
> > athletes cycling fibers to maintain tension. I believe Mel also
> > implied/said that higher threshold fibers "orchestrate", also much like
> > various sections of an orchestra. Some where in my past I? had research
> > that indicated this also -- especially the very lowest threshold at 90+
> > secs. And could never totally concentrically below 2-5% max!? My brother
> > accidently lost my last 2 copies of the 1993? "Beyond 2001" but should have
> > it on a computer file somewhere.
> >
> > Regardless, to what extent slow twitch can be hypertrophied beyond a
> > certain % has probably not been conclusively established, though for an
> > hypertrophy athlete it is important.
> >
> > You say "During high intensity work such as weight lifting maximum force
> > is achieved through synchronous recruitment of as many muscle fibers as
> > possible". I'm sure you meant this to be a somewhat general statement in
> > that "pure" synchrony is only approached as total muscle reaches high
> > percents of fatigue, as much damage often results as one approaches
> > "involuntary", life threatening maximums.
> >
> > And finally you say -- "During all out max rep ATP and CP are the primary
> > source of energy. Depending on training state there is less than 20 seconds
> > worth of ATP and CP available stored for instant energy, after that the ATP
> > has to be replenished during recovery". -- Again, we need to be aware that
> > "during all out max rep"s -- during initial fresh voluntary exertions
> > estimates range from 65- 85% involuntary max or 85% of involuntary fibers
> > at varying degrees of summation/rate coding and synchronicity (or some
> > thing in between) are exerted.
> >
> > I don't remember exactly to what extent highest threshold IIb'-a's are
> > summated and/or synchronized but wrote recently --- MISPLACING THE SOURCE
> > OF COURSE - but here it is
> >
> > SYNCHRONIZATION TENSION/FORCE TOTAL MUSCLE. Total muscle tension force is
> > partly a function of basically howmany fibers are recruited at NEARLY the
> > same moment. This never happens all atonce at first because the tension
> > force would actually tear the muscle tendonsfrom their moorings (unless the
> > muscle is fatigued) --- QUOTE -- (I'm looking for the source now --
> > midnite).
> >
> > â€œIf you perform asub-maximal task long enough to induce fatigue, the loss
> > of force will becompensated by increased recruitment synchronization and
> > increased rate coding (AND SUMMATION) of the recruited fibers. If a fiber
> > is creating a specific required tension andis at a frequency which induces
> > it to create 75% of it's maximum for example,as it fatigues, the SPS
> > frequency will increase to keep it at that tensionlevel. Eventually, rate
> > coding (AND SYNCHRONIZATION) will be maximized and the fiber (ENTIRE
> > MUSCLE) will not be ableto continue to display that tension levelâ€.
> >
> > I would add that if you perform max voluntary TASK that only 1 will be
> > able to be performed (unless you can suddenly tap into that involuntary
> > reserve -- which one would think you could since there is no additional
> > weight involved -- that is there are unused (maybe not enough for requisite
> > tensions) -- then again a 100% max effort taking about 2.5 seconds
> > concentric depletes an enormous amount of momentary tensions -- much of it
> > neural.
> >
> > Will have to google slow twitch hypertrophy.
> >
> > Jerry Telle
> >
> > Lakewood CO USA
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > From: Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@...>
> >
> > To: Supertraining <Supertraining@yahoogroups.com>
> >
> > Sent: Tue, Nov 6, 2012 11:28 am
> >
> > Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
> >
> > The only muscle fibers that never fatigue are the heart muscles fibers.
> > All voluntary muscles fibers fatigue even Type I.
> >
> > The difference is that Type I fibers take longer to reach their limit.
> > Mitochondrial density and capillary density are determining factors in how
> > long it takes for voluntary muscle fibers to fatigue.
> >
> > Type II fibers have significantly less mitochondria than Type I fibers.
> > Specific endurance training will increase both mitochondrial density as
> > well as capillary density in type I fibers.
> >
> > During high intensity work such as weight lifting maximum force is
> > achieved through synchronous recruitment of as many muscle fibers as
> > possible.
> >
> > The firing pattern of endurance athletes becomes asynchronous. During
> > continuous contractions, some units are firing while others recover,
> > providing a built in recovery period. The muscle fibers act some what like
> > a circular relay race or a pace line in bicycle racing.. When one group
> > tires another works while the first recovers and when second group tires a
> > third takes over etc and this continues until it is the turn of the first
> > group again.
> >
> > The rapidity of fatigue also depends on what the primary source of energy
> > is during the activity.
> >
> > During all out max rep ATP and CP are the primary source of energy.
> > Depending on training state there is less than 20 seconds worth of ATP and
> > CP available stored for instant energy, after that the ATP has to be
> > replenished during recovery.
> >
> > Ralph Giarnella MD
> >
> > Southington Ct. USAï¿¼
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: Phil Caraher <pcaraher1@...>
> >
> > To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Sent: Monday, November 5, 2012 4:16 PM
> >
> > Subject: RE: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
> >
> > It is my understanding the motor units in postural muscles will share the
> >
> > burden so that no one unit is always active which would prevent fatigue and
> >
> > maintain posture.
> >
> > Phil Caraher, DPT, MS, CSCS, PES, CES
> >
> > Physical Therapist
> >
> > Chapel Hill, NC
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > From: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Supertraining@yahoogroups.com]
> >
> > On Behalf Of Giovanni Ciriani
> >
> > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 2:17 PM
> >
> > To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
> >
> > I do not understand the concept of fatigueing a fiber to train it. Mt
> >
> > understanding is that fibers adapt (train) because there is microdamage,
> >
> > which probably can happen even without fatigue to occur. In addition I
> >
> > thought that 100% type I fibers would be able to produce a certain force ad
> >
> > infinitum, such as postural fibers. If that was not the case then one would
> >
> > slump down on a desk after a few minutes because the muscles of the back
> >
> > were fatigued.
> >
> > Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
> >
> > On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 2:02 AM, <JRTELLE@...> wrote:
> >
> > > **
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Greetings all.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > I received this message from an obviously experienced trainer.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Jerry:
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Iread in the summer issue of MILO that you determined that a Type 1
> >
> > > slow twitchmuscle fiber required a time under tension of 90 to 240
> >
> > > seconds to fatigue thatparticular fiber. From that I deduce that since
> >
> > > a muscle--say a leg or ashoulder one isn't one-hundred percent fast or
> >
> > > slow twitch, to adequatelyfatigue and build that muscle both types of
> >
> > > fibers need to be exercised. Ifthis is so, then I can only see a
> >
> > > couple of possibilities to attack the slowtwitch; lighter weight and
> >
> > higher reps or super slow reps.
> >
> > > Withsuper slow in order to reach the 90 second threshold would
> >
> > > probably necessitatea lower weight as well. Am I barking up the wrong
> >
> > > tree? If not, what are yoursuggestions for incorporating fatiguing
> >
> > > both types of fibers in a singleworkout?
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Ithank you for your time and effort in responding to this request.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > I responded.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Right tree, rightbark -- maybe,
> >
> > >
> >
> > > I havephilosophically fought with these slow twitchers forever. At one
> >
> > > point I wasdoing drop sets starting with a IIb weight, then 2 - IIa
> >
> > > drop sets, then superslow up - two 120+ seconds. SEEMED to work. This
> >
> > > I termed "top down" training!Recent research seems to indicate that
> >
> > > exertion should last 50 - 55 seconds(for type II's???) then cessation!
> >
> > >
> >
> > > The type onestheoretically via the "size" principle are worked the
> >
> > > entire 55seconds also which is a pretty good stimulation -- maybe?
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Another that Ithink maybe better is to work the type II's on one day
> >
> > > and 3 days later theI's. The ones protocol being starting with a 30%
> >
> > > of 1 RM Slow moes at 4(to8)2(or more)40. that's 4240 or 4 down 2 at
> >
> > > the isometric bottom getting a superstretch - 4 up - 0 at top
> >
> > > isometric position. Here is 1
> >
> > > protocol:
> >
> > >
> >
> > > 1. 6240 to failure
> >
> > > 2. thenimmediately after failure 40X+0 the X+ being an explosive
> >
> > > positive up and 4down and no stop at bottom. The fascinating thing
> >
> > > being the explosive strengthleft after total slow moe failure. Should
> >
> > > be able to get
> >
> > > 2 maybe 3 xtra reps -very painful.
> >
> > > 3. 1 drop set ofsame protocol.
> >
> > > This should getyou to 90+ seconds which may be good enough? I have
> >
> > > done drops to very lowloads -- so low that failure could not be
> >
> > > attained - it would seem at these lowloads certain slow (or fast
> >
> > > fibers) rest then contribute as the others nowrest??
> >
> > >
> >
> > > This I termed "bottomup" training.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > And finally I havetried Eccentric sets and drops to near total fiber
> >
> > > failure at very low loads-- a very taxingtraining protocol which
> >
> > > should be gradually built up to.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > I, somewhere, haveresearch on this matter which will try to find and
> > send!
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Thanx for thequestion. It always helps me to write out my current
> >
> > > beliefs as it clarifiessame and most often leads to new ideas.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > I should have added. When concentric failure is reached do slow moe
> >
> > > bottom of movement -- end of eccentric, isometric, start of concentric
> >
> > partials.
> >
> > > Fiber tension is always greatest there (think tension-force
> >
> > > phenomenon), lasts the longest as fatigue accumulates(my research and
> >
> > > highly respected researchers Komi and Hakkinen from Finland) and is a
> >
> > > great highest possible tension set extender not wasting valuable
> >
> > > mental energy on uselessly low, detrimental or non existent fiber
> > tensions
> >
> > attempting full ROM movements.
> >
> > > Do partials to complete failure that is less and less movement to zero
> >
> > > -- but not max intensity (totally psyched out -- competition effort)!
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Jerry
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Any remarks? -- Negative remarks welcomed!
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Jerry Telle
> >
> > > lakewood CO USA
> >
> > >
> >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Modify/cancel your subscription at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
> >
> > Sign all letters with full name & city of residence if you wish them to be
> >
> > published!
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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1c

Re: Slow twitch hypertrophy.--Brock

Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:24 am (PST) . Posted by:

"Jerry Telle"

Hi Brock,
I agree. As soon as I posted the slow being the first to atrophy I read about a situation where that wasn't necessarily the case! I'm still half way believing the slow are first to begin to atrophy during inactivity stretches. It makes sense in a survival environment where safety is ones first con cern?

Jerry Telle
Lakewood CO USA
On Nov 10, 2012, at 5:38 AM, Giovanni Ciriani <Giovanni.Ciriani@Gmail.com> wrote:

> Jerry,
> You indicated that slow twitch fibers are the first to atrophy. I do not
> think there is conclusive evidence. I think there have been studies
> pointing out to either hypothesis: fast twitch atrophy first, or slow
> twitch atrophy first.
>
> There are still so many things we do not know about the body's physiology
> that I'm not surprised we still do not have a conclusive understanding of
> atrophy.
>
> I remember reading that when one is forced to inactivity because of an
> injury, there is a staggering loss of fast twitch fiber (maybe just force,
> I'm not sure), in the first week alone, of 5%. From an intuitive point of
> view, because muscle (and force) recruitment is always progressive, I would
> expect that one always engages slow twitch fibers, but not always fast
> twitch fibers. As a consequence, it's not possible to engage fast twitch
> fibers without first engaging slow twitch ones.
>
> But intuition has failed me before, especially about phenomena I do not
> fully understand.
>
> Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
>
> On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 8:17 AM, <JRTELLE@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Thanks Brock,
> >
> > Here's why.
> >
> > You say, "I guess my question in all of this is - what is the purpose of
> > attempting to hypertrophy the slow-twitch fibers anyway? They have far less
> > capacity for growth, so it is unlikely to have much impact on physique
> > development,
> >
> > --telle. Have not re researched this yet but do remember there is some %
> > of hypertrophy significant enough for hypertrophy athlete';s attention.
> > But, in much likelihood, the typical hypertrophy routine will hypertrophy
> > these to 80%?? of their potential -- maybe meaning that the additional
> > efforts required will significantly negatively deplete neural recovery
> > energies? Slow twitch tempo's of 4080?, for me, are very taxing.
> >
> > Brock. " and if it is to possibly increase their force capacity, that's
> > not really what they're there for anyway."
> >
> > telle. yes and no sort of. It is "POSSIBLE" they increase force capacities
> > and they may contribute significantly to force expressions -- perhaps as
> > the muscle fatigues during sprinting that is -- rate of tension generating
> > capacities are fast enough to contribute to high power events" ??
> >
> > And their purpose is pretty much universal in that they are the first to
> > atrophy w/ disuse and thus are a function of "any" necessary activity.
> >
> > Brock, "I would be more inclined to say, if they hypertrophy, great, but
> > if not, you probably shouldn't leave much sleep over it.
> >
> > telle -- I would be greatly inclined to agree!
> >
> > Jerry Telle
> > Lakewood CO USA
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Brock Leggins <brockleggins@hotmail.com>
> > To: supertraining <supertraining@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:15 am
> > Subject: RE: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
> >
> > I guess my question in all of this is - what is the purpose of attempting
> > to hypertrophy the slow-twitch fibers anyway? They have far less capacity
> > for growth, so it is unlikely to have much impact on physique development,
> > and if it is to possibly increase their force capacity, that's not really
> > what they're there for anyway. I would be more inclined to say, if they
> > hypertrophy, great, but if not, you probably shouldn't leave much sleep
> > over it.
> >
> > To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
> > From: JRTELLE@AOL.COM
> > Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 01:57:44 -0500
> > Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
> >
> > Nice reply Ralph,
> >
> > Points of my confusion: you say, "All voluntary muscles fibers fatigue
> > even Type I." I probably agree with the following caveats. I have tried to
> > totally, w/ the same eccentric concentric resistance attempting to max
> > resistance over both ROM's by varying body positions, fatigue all fibers at
> > once -- cant be done -- there's always some resistance that can be moved or
> > resisted?! When it seemed that slow twitch had finally had it -- some
> > higher threshold force would manifest?! And so on -- with immense amounts
> > (for me anyway) of pain accruing.
> >
> > I seem to recall Mel saying pretty much what you mentioned about endurance
> > athletes cycling fibers to maintain tension. I believe Mel also
> > implied/said that higher threshold fibers "orchestrate", also much like
> > various sections of an orchestra. Some where in my past I? had research
> > that indicated this also -- especially the very lowest threshold at 90+
> > secs. And could never totally concentrically below 2-5% max!? My brother
> > accidently lost my last 2 copies of the 1993? "Beyond 2001" but should have
> > it on a computer file somewhere.
> >
> > Regardless, to what extent slow twitch can be hypertrophied beyond a
> > certain % has probably not been conclusively established, though for an
> > hypertrophy athlete it is important.
> >
> > You say "During high intensity work such as weight lifting maximum force
> > is achieved through synchronous recruitment of as many muscle fibers as
> > possible". I'm sure you meant this to be a somewhat general statement in
> > that "pure" synchrony is only approached as total muscle reaches high
> > percents of fatigue, as much damage often results as one approaches
> > "involuntary", life threatening maximums.
> >
> > And finally you say -- "During all out max rep ATP and CP are the primary
> > source of energy. Depending on training state there is less than 20 seconds
> > worth of ATP and CP available stored for instant energy, after that the ATP
> > has to be replenished during recovery". -- Again, we need to be aware that
> > "during all out max rep"s -- during initial fresh voluntary exertions
> > estimates range from 65- 85% involuntary max or 85% of involuntary fibers
> > at varying degrees of summation/rate coding and synchronicity (or some
> > thing in between) are exerted.
> >
> > I don't remember exactly to what extent highest threshold IIb'-a's are
> > summated and/or synchronized but wrote recently --- MISPLACING THE SOURCE
> > OF COURSE - but here it is
> >
> > SYNCHRONIZATION TENSION/FORCE TOTAL MUSCLE. Total muscle tension force is
> > partly a function of basically howmany fibers are recruited at NEARLY the
> > same moment. This never happens all atonce at first because the tension
> > force would actually tear the muscle tendonsfrom their moorings (unless the
> > muscle is fatigued) --- QUOTE -- (I'm looking for the source now --
> > midnite).
> >
> > "If you perform asub-maximal task long enough to induce fatigue, the loss
> > of force will becompensated by increased recruitment synchronization and
> > increased rate coding (AND SUMMATION) of the recruited fibers. If a fiber
> > is creating a specific required tension andis at a frequency which induces
> > it to create 75% of it's maximum for example,as it fatigues, the SPS
> > frequency will increase to keep it at that tensionlevel. Eventually, rate
> > coding (AND SYNCHRONIZATION) will be maximized and the fiber (ENTIRE
> > MUSCLE) will not be ableto continue to display that tension level".
> >
> > I would add that if you perform max voluntary TASK that only 1 will be
> > able to be performed (unless you can suddenly tap into that involuntary
> > reserve -- which one would think you could since there is no additional
> > weight involved -- that is there are unused (maybe not enough for requisite
> > tensions) -- then again a 100% max effort taking about 2.5 seconds
> > concentric depletes an enormous amount of momentary tensions -- much of it
> > neural.
> >
> > Will have to google slow twitch hypertrophy.
> >
> > Jerry Telle
> >
> > Lakewood CO USA
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > From: Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@yahoo.com>
> >
> > To: Supertraining <Supertraining@yahoogroups.com>
> >
> > Sent: Tue, Nov 6, 2012 11:28 am
> >
> > Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
> >
> > The only muscle fibers that never fatigue are the heart muscles fibers.
> > All voluntary muscles fibers fatigue even Type I.
> >
> > The difference is that Type I fibers take longer to reach their limit.
> > Mitochondrial density and capillary density are determining factors in how
> > long it takes for voluntary muscle fibers to fatigue.
> >
> > Type II fibers have significantly less mitochondria than Type I fibers.
> > Specific endurance training will increase both mitochondrial density as
> > well as capillary density in type I fibers.
> >
> > During high intensity work such as weight lifting maximum force is
> > achieved through synchronous recruitment of as many muscle fibers as
> > possible.
> >
> > The firing pattern of endurance athletes becomes asynchronous. During
> > continuous contractions, some units are firing while others recover,
> > providing a built in recovery period. The muscle fibers act some what like
> > a circular relay race or a pace line in bicycle racing.. When one group
> > tires another works while the first recovers and when second group tires a
> > third takes over etc and this continues until it is the turn of the first
> > group again.
> >
> > The rapidity of fatigue also depends on what the primary source of energy
> > is during the activity.
> >
> > During all out max rep ATP and CP are the primary source of energy.
> > Depending on training state there is less than 20 seconds worth of ATP and
> > CP available stored for instant energy, after that the ATP has to be
> > replenished during recovery.
> >
> > Ralph Giarnella MD
> >
> > Southington Ct. USA
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: Phil Caraher <pcaraher1@nc.rr.com>
> >
> > To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Sent: Monday, November 5, 2012 4:16 PM
> >
> > Subject: RE: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
> >
> > It is my understanding the motor units in postural muscles will share the
> >
> > burden so that no one unit is always active which would prevent fatigue and
> >
> > maintain posture.
> >
> > Phil Caraher, DPT, MS, CSCS, PES, CES
> >
> > Physical Therapist
> >
> > Chapel Hill, NC
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > From: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Supertraining@yahoogroups.com]
> >
> > On Behalf Of Giovanni Ciriani
> >
> > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 2:17 PM
> >
> > To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
> >
> > I do not understand the concept of fatigueing a fiber to train it. Mt
> >
> > understanding is that fibers adapt (train) because there is microdamage,
> >
> > which probably can happen even without fatigue to occur. In addition I
> >
> > thought that 100% type I fibers would be able to produce a certain force ad
> >
> > infinitum, such as postural fibers. If that was not the case then one would
> >
> > slump down on a desk after a few minutes because the muscles of the back
> >
> > were fatigued.
> >
> > Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
> >
> > On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 2:02 AM, <JRTELLE@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > > **
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Greetings all.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > I received this message from an obviously experienced trainer.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Jerry:
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Iread in the summer issue of MILO that you determined that a Type 1
> >
> > > slow twitchmuscle fiber required a time under tension of 90 to 240
> >
> > > seconds to fatigue thatparticular fiber. From that I deduce that since
> >
> > > a muscle--say a leg or ashoulder one isn't one-hundred percent fast or
> >
> > > slow twitch, to adequatelyfatigue and build that muscle both types of
> >
> > > fibers need to be exercised. Ifthis is so, then I can only see a
> >
> > > couple of possibilities to attack the slowtwitch; lighter weight and
> >
> > higher reps or super slow reps.
> >
> > > Withsuper slow in order to reach the 90 second threshold would
> >
> > > probably necessitatea lower weight as well. Am I barking up the wrong
> >
> > > tree? If not, what are yoursuggestions for incorporating fatiguing
> >
> > > both types of fibers in a singleworkout?
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Ithank you for your time and effort in responding to this request.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > I responded.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Right tree, rightbark -- maybe,
> >
> > >
> >
> > > I havephilosophically fought with these slow twitchers forever. At one
> >
> > > point I wasdoing drop sets starting with a IIb weight, then 2 - IIa
> >
> > > drop sets, then superslow up - two 120+ seconds. SEEMED to work. This
> >
> > > I termed "top down" training!Recent research seems to indicate that
> >
> > > exertion should last 50 - 55 seconds(for type II's???) then cessation!
> >
> > >
> >
> > > The type onestheoretically via the "size" principle are worked the
> >
> > > entire 55seconds also which is a pretty good stimulation -- maybe?
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Another that Ithink maybe better is to work the type II's on one day
> >
> > > and 3 days later theI's. The ones protocol being starting with a 30%
> >
> > > of 1 RM Slow moes at 4(to8)2(or more)40. that's 4240 or 4 down 2 at
> >
> > > the isometric bottom getting a superstretch - 4 up - 0 at top
> >
> > > isometric position. Here is 1
> >
> > > protocol:
> >
> > >
> >
> > > 1. 6240 to failure
> >
> > > 2. thenimmediately after failure 40X+0 the X+ being an explosive
> >
> > > positive up and 4down and no stop at bottom. The fascinating thing
> >
> > > being the explosive strengthleft after total slow moe failure. Should
> >
> > > be able to get
> >
> > > 2 maybe 3 xtra reps -very painful.
> >
> > > 3. 1 drop set ofsame protocol.
> >
> > > This should getyou to 90+ seconds which may be good enough? I have
> >
> > > done drops to very lowloads -- so low that failure could not be
> >
> > > attained - it would seem at these lowloads certain slow (or fast
> >
> > > fibers) rest then contribute as the others nowrest??
> >
> > >
> >
> > > This I termed "bottomup" training.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > And finally I havetried Eccentric sets and drops to near total fiber
> >
> > > failure at very low loads-- a very taxingtraining protocol which
> >
> > > should be gradually built up to.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > I, somewhere, haveresearch on this matter which will try to find and
> > send!
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Thanx for thequestion. It always helps me to write out my current
> >
> > > beliefs as it clarifiessame and most often leads to new ideas.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > I should have added. When concentric failure is reached do slow moe
> >
> > > bottom of movement -- end of eccentric, isometric, start of concentric
> >
> > partials.
> >
> > > Fiber tension is always greatest there (think tension-force
> >
> > > phenomenon), lasts the longest as fatigue accumulates(my research and
> >
> > > highly respected researchers Komi and Hakkinen from Finland) and is a
> >
> > > great highest possible tension set extender not wasting valuable
> >
> > > mental energy on uselessly low, detrimental or non existent fiber
> > tensions
> >
> > attempting full ROM movements.
> >
> > > Do partials to complete failure that is less and less movement to zero
> >
> > > -- but not max intensity (totally psyched out -- competition effort)!
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Jerry
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Any remarks? -- Negative remarks welcomed!
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Jerry Telle
> >
> > > lakewood CO USA
> >
> > >
> >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Modify/cancel your subscription at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
> >
> > Sign all letters with full name & city of residence if you wish them to be
> >
> > published!
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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1d

Re: Slow twitch hypertrophy.--Brock

Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:25 am (PST) . Posted by:

"Giovanni Ciriani" gciriani

Jerry,
Can you please produce the bibliography showing reverse muscle recruitment?
A search on PubMed for Nardone (or Nardonne) and for reverse muscle
recruitment didn't produce any pertinent result.

Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
P.S. your last two messages came directly to me and were not broadcast to
the Supertraining community.

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 10:47 PM, <jrtelle@aol.com> wrote:

> oooppps my sincerest i got a new Mac and messages are everywhere in a
> strange fornat! I'm on my old one now so no excuses. I was so frustrated I
> waited to finish my message on this one.
>
> In particular Mr Giovanni Ciriani writes " From an intuitive point of
> progressive,
>
> view, because muscle (and force) recruitment is always
>
> NOT SO -- A FELLOW NAMED NARDONNE APPARENTLY REVERSED ORDERS IN
> ECCENTRIC ACTIONS AND SOME ONE ELSE? MIGHT HAVE DONE SO WITH EXPLOSIVE HIGH
> LOAD CONCENTRICS? I would
>
> expect that one always engages slow twitch fibers, but not always fast
> twitch fibers.THIS MAY NOT BE TRUE WITH SOME FIBER TYPES INDICATING AN
> INCREASE IN IIB FIBERS SIZE ?? AND NUMBER??As a consequence, it's not
> possible to engage fast twitch
> fibers without first engaging slow twitch ones. DON'T BET THE FARM YET! I
> HAVE REAMS OF STUDIES TO LOOK THROUGH
>
>
> Jerry Telle
> Lakewood CO USA
>
> PS BROCK WAS IN THE PREVIOUS POST
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Giovanni Ciriani <giovanni.ciriani@gmail.com>
> To: Jerry Telle <jrtelle@aol.com>
> Sent: Sun, Nov 11, 2012 7:09 pm
> Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.--Brock
>
> First time somebody calls me Brock :-)
>
> Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
>
> On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 8:46 PM, Jerry Telle <jrtelle@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Brock,
>> I agree. As soon as I posted the slow being the first to atrophy I read
>> about a situation where that wasn't necessarily the case! I'm still half
>> way believing the slow are first to begin to atrophy during inactivity
>> stretches. It makes sense in a survival environment where safety is ones
>> first con cern?
>>
>> Jerry Telle
>> Lakewood CO USA
>> On Nov 10, 2012, at 5:38 AM, Giovanni Ciriani <
>> Giovanni.Ciriani@Gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Jerry,
>> You indicated that slow twitch fibers are the first to atrophy. I do not
>> think there is conclusive evidence. I think there have been studies
>> pointing out to either hypothesis: fast twitch atrophy first, or slow
>> twitch atrophy first.
>>
>> There are still so many things we do not know about the body's physiology
>> that I'm not surprised we still do not have a conclusive understanding of
>> atrophy.
>>
>> I remember reading that when one is forced to inactivity because of an
>> injury, there is a staggering loss of fast twitch fiber (maybe just force,
>> I'm not sure), in the first week alone, of 5%. From an intuitive point of
>> view, because muscle (and force) recruitment is always progressive, I
>> would
>> expect that one always engages slow twitch fibers, but not always fast
>> twitch fibers. As a consequence, it's not possible to engage fast twitch
>> fibers without first engaging slow twitch ones.
>>
>> But intuition has failed me before, especially about phenomena I do not
>> fully understand.
>>
>> Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 8:17 AM, <JRTELLE@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> > **
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > Thanks Brock,
>> >
>> > Here's why.
>> >
>> > You say, "I guess my question in all of this is - what is the purpose of
>> > attempting to hypertrophy the slow-twitch fibers anyway? They have far
>> less
>> > capacity for growth, so it is unlikely to have much impact on physique
>> > development,
>> >
>> > --telle. Have not re researched this yet but do remember there is some %
>> > of hypertrophy significant enough for hypertrophy athlete';s attention.
>> > But, in much likelihood, the typical hypertrophy routine will
>> hypertrophy
>> > these to 80%?? of their potential -- maybe meaning that the additional
>> > efforts required will significantly negatively deplete neural recovery
>> > energies? Slow twitch tempo's of 4080?, for me, are very taxing.
>> >
>> > Brock. " and if it is to possibly increase their force capacity, that's
>> > not really what they're there for anyway."
>> >
>> > telle. yes and no sort of. It is "POSSIBLE" they increase force
>> capacities
>> > and they may contribute significantly to force expressions -- perhaps as
>> > the muscle fatigues during sprinting that is -- rate of tension
>> generating
>> > capacities are fast enough to contribute to high power events" ??
>> >
>> > And their purpose is pretty much universal in that they are the first to
>> > atrophy w/ disuse and thus are a function of "any" necessary activity.
>> >
>> > Brock, "I would be more inclined to say, if they hypertrophy, great, but
>> > if not, you probably shouldn't leave much sleep over it.
>> >
>> > telle -- I would be greatly inclined to agree!
>> >
>> > Jerry Telle
>> > Lakewood CO USA
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Brock Leggins <brockleggins@hotmail.com>
>> > To: supertraining <supertraining@yahoogroups.com>
>> > Sent: Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:15 am
>> > Subject: RE: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
>> >
>> > I guess my question in all of this is - what is the purpose of
>> attempting
>> > to hypertrophy the slow-twitch fibers anyway? They have far less
>> capacity
>> > for growth, so it is unlikely to have much impact on physique
>> development,
>> > and if it is to possibly increase their force capacity, that's not
>> really
>> > what they're there for anyway. I would be more inclined to say, if they
>> > hypertrophy, great, but if not, you probably shouldn't leave much sleep
>> > over it.
>> >
>> > To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
>> > From: JRTELLE@AOL.COM
>> > Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 01:57:44 -0500
>> > Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
>> >
>> > Nice reply Ralph,
>> >
>> > Points of my confusion: you say, "All voluntary muscles fibers fatigue
>> > even Type I." I probably agree with the following caveats. I have tried
>> to
>> > totally, w/ the same eccentric concentric resistance attempting to max
>> > resistance over both ROM's by varying body positions, fatigue all
>> fibers at
>> > once -- cant be done -- there's always some resistance that can be
>> moved or
>> > resisted?! When it seemed that slow twitch had finally had it -- some
>> > higher threshold force would manifest?! And so on -- with immense
>> amounts
>> > (for me anyway) of pain accruing.
>> >
>> > I seem to recall Mel saying pretty much what you mentioned about
>> endurance
>> > athletes cycling fibers to maintain tension. I believe Mel also
>> > implied/said that higher threshold fibers "orchestrate", also much like
>> > various sections of an orchestra. Some where in my past I? had research
>> > that indicated this also -- especially the very lowest threshold at 90+
>> > secs. And could never totally concentrically below 2-5% max!? My brother
>> > accidently lost my last 2 copies of the 1993? "Beyond 2001" but should
>> have
>> > it on a computer file somewhere.
>> >
>> > Regardless, to what extent slow twitch can be hypertrophied beyond a
>> > certain % has probably not been conclusively established, though for an
>> > hypertrophy athlete it is important.
>> >
>> > You say "During high intensity work such as weight lifting maximum force
>> > is achieved through synchronous recruitment of as many muscle fibers as
>> > possible". I'm sure you meant this to be a somewhat general statement in
>> > that "pure" synchrony is only approached as total muscle reaches high
>> > percents of fatigue, as much damage often results as one approaches
>> > "involuntary", life threatening maximums.
>> >
>> > And finally you say -- "During all out max rep ATP and CP are the
>> primary
>> > source of energy. Depending on training state there is less than 20
>> seconds
>> > worth of ATP and CP available stored for instant energy, after that the
>> ATP
>> > has to be replenished during recovery". -- Again, we need to be aware
>> that
>> > "during all out max rep"s -- during initial fresh voluntary exertions
>> > estimates range from 65- 85% involuntary max or 85% of involuntary
>> fibers
>> > at varying degrees of summation/rate coding and synchronicity (or some
>> > thing in between) are exerted.
>> >
>> > I don't remember exactly to what extent highest threshold IIb'-a's are
>> > summated and/or synchronized but wrote recently --- MISPLACING THE
>> SOURCE
>> > OF COURSE - but here it is
>> >
>> > SYNCHRONIZATION TENSION/FORCE TOTAL MUSCLE. Total muscle tension force
>> is
>> > partly a function of basically howmany fibers are recruited at NEARLY
>> the
>> > same moment. This never happens all atonce at first because the tension
>> > force would actually tear the muscle tendonsfrom their moorings (unless
>> the
>> > muscle is fatigued) --- QUOTE -- (I'm looking for the source now --
>> > midnite).
>> >
>> > "If you perform asub-maximal task long enough to induce fatigue, the
>> loss
>> > of force will becompensated by increased recruitment synchronization and
>> > increased rate coding (AND SUMMATION) of the recruited fibers. If a
>> fiber
>> > is creating a specific required tension andis at a frequency which
>> induces
>> > it to create 75% of it's maximum for example,as it fatigues, the SPS
>> > frequency will increase to keep it at that tensionlevel. Eventually,
>> rate
>> > coding (AND SYNCHRONIZATION) will be maximized and the fiber (ENTIRE
>> > MUSCLE) will not be ableto continue to display that tension level".
>> >
>> > I would add that if you perform max voluntary TASK that only 1 will be
>> > able to be performed (unless you can suddenly tap into that involuntary
>> > reserve -- which one would think you could since there is no additional
>> > weight involved -- that is there are unused (maybe not enough for
>> requisite
>> > tensions) -- then again a 100% max effort taking about 2.5 seconds
>> > concentric depletes an enormous amount of momentary tensions -- much of
>> it
>> > neural.
>> >
>> > Will have to google slow twitch hypertrophy.
>> >
>> > Jerry Telle
>> >
>> > Lakewood CO USA
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> >
>> > From: Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@yahoo.com>
>> >
>> > To: Supertraining <Supertraining@yahoogroups.com>
>> >
>> > Sent: Tue, Nov 6, 2012 11:28 am
>> >
>> > Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
>> >
>> > The only muscle fibers that never fatigue are the heart muscles fibers.
>> > All voluntary muscles fibers fatigue even Type I.
>> >
>> > The difference is that Type I fibers take longer to reach their limit.
>> > Mitochondrial density and capillary density are determining factors in
>> how
>> > long it takes for voluntary muscle fibers to fatigue.
>> >
>> > Type II fibers have significantly less mitochondria than Type I fibers.
>> > Specific endurance training will increase both mitochondrial density as
>> > well as capillary density in type I fibers.
>> >
>> > During high intensity work such as weight lifting maximum force is
>> > achieved through synchronous recruitment of as many muscle fibers as
>> > possible.
>> >
>> > The firing pattern of endurance athletes becomes asynchronous. During
>> > continuous contractions, some units are firing while others recover,
>> > providing a built in recovery period. The muscle fibers act some what
>> like
>> > a circular relay race or a pace line in bicycle racing.. When one group
>> > tires another works while the first recovers and when second group
>> tires a
>> > third takes over etc and this continues until it is the turn of the
>> first
>> > group again.
>> >
>> > The rapidity of fatigue also depends on what the primary source of
>> energy
>> > is during the activity.
>> >
>> > During all out max rep ATP and CP are the primary source of energy.
>> > Depending on training state there is less than 20 seconds worth of ATP
>> and
>> > CP available stored for instant energy, after that the ATP has to be
>> > replenished during recovery.
>> >
>> > Ralph Giarnella MD
>> >
>> > Southington Ct. USA
>> >
>> > ________________________________
>> >
>> > From: Phil Caraher <pcaraher1@nc.rr.com>
>> >
>> > To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
>> >
>> > Sent: Monday, November 5, 2012 4:16 PM
>> >
>> > Subject: RE: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
>> >
>> > It is my understanding the motor units in postural muscles will share
>> the
>> >
>> > burden so that no one unit is always active which would prevent fatigue
>> and
>> >
>> > maintain posture.
>> >
>> > Phil Caraher, DPT, MS, CSCS, PES, CES
>> >
>> > Physical Therapist
>> >
>> > Chapel Hill, NC
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> >
>> > From: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
>> Supertraining@yahoogroups.com]
>> >
>> > On Behalf Of Giovanni Ciriani
>> >
>> > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 2:17 PM
>> >
>> > To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
>> >
>> > Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
>> >
>> > I do not understand the concept of fatigueing a fiber to train it. Mt
>> >
>> > understanding is that fibers adapt (train) because there is microdamage,
>> >
>> > which probably can happen even without fatigue to occur. In addition I
>> >
>> > thought that 100% type I fibers would be able to produce a certain
>> force ad
>> >
>> > infinitum, such as postural fibers. If that was not the case then one
>> would
>> >
>> > slump down on a desk after a few minutes because the muscles of the back
>> >
>> > were fatigued.
>> >
>> > Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
>> >
>> > On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 2:02 AM, <JRTELLE@aol.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > **
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > Greetings all.
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > I received this message from an obviously experienced trainer.
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > Jerry:
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > Iread in the summer issue of MILO that you determined that a Type 1
>> >
>> > > slow twitchmuscle fiber required a time under tension of 90 to 240
>> >
>> > > seconds to fatigue thatparticular fiber. From that I deduce that since
>> >
>> > > a muscle--say a leg or ashoulder one isn't one-hundred percent fast or
>> >
>> > > slow twitch, to adequatelyfatigue and build that muscle both types of
>> >
>> > > fibers need to be exercised. Ifthis is so, then I can only see a
>> >
>> > > couple of possibilities to attack the slowtwitch; lighter weight and
>> >
>> > higher reps or super slow reps.
>> >
>> > > Withsuper slow in order to reach the 90 second threshold would
>> >
>> > > probably necessitatea lower weight as well. Am I barking up the wrong
>> >
>> > > tree? If not, what are yoursuggestions for incorporating fatiguing
>> >
>> > > both types of fibers in a singleworkout?
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > Ithank you for your time and effort in responding to this request.
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > I responded.
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > Right tree, rightbark -- maybe,
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > I havephilosophically fought with these slow twitchers forever. At one
>> >
>> > > point I wasdoing drop sets starting with a IIb weight, then 2 - IIa
>> >
>> > > drop sets, then superslow up - two 120+ seconds. SEEMED to work. This
>> >
>> > > I termed "top down" training!Recent research seems to indicate that
>> >
>> > > exertion should last 50 - 55 seconds(for type II's???) then cessation!
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > The type onestheoretically via the "size" principle are worked the
>> >
>> > > entire 55seconds also which is a pretty good stimulation -- maybe?
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > Another that Ithink maybe better is to work the type II's on one day
>> >
>> > > and 3 days later theI's. The ones protocol being starting with a 30%
>> >
>> > > of 1 RM Slow moes at 4(to8)2(or more)40. that's 4240 or 4 down 2 at
>> >
>> > > the isometric bottom getting a superstretch - 4 up - 0 at top
>> >
>> > > isometric position. Here is 1
>> >
>> > > protocol:
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > 1. 6240 to failure
>> >
>> > > 2. thenimmediately after failure 40X+0 the X+ being an explosive
>> >
>> > > positive up and 4down and no stop at bottom. The fascinating thing
>> >
>> > > being the explosive strengthleft after total slow moe failure. Should
>> >
>> > > be able to get
>> >
>> > > 2 maybe 3 xtra reps -very painful.
>> >
>> > > 3. 1 drop set ofsame protocol.
>> >
>> > > This should getyou to 90+ seconds which may be good enough? I have
>> >
>> > > done drops to very lowloads -- so low that failure could not be
>> >
>> > > attained - it would seem at these lowloads certain slow (or fast
>> >
>> > > fibers) rest then contribute as the others nowrest??
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > This I termed "bottomup" training.
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > And finally I havetried Eccentric sets and drops to near total fiber
>> >
>> > > failure at very low loads-- a very taxingtraining protocol which
>> >
>> > > should be gradually built up to.
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > I, somewhere, haveresearch on this matter which will try to find and
>> > send!
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > Thanx for thequestion. It always helps me to write out my current
>> >
>> > > beliefs as it clarifiessame and most often leads to new ideas.
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > I should have added. When concentric failure is reached do slow moe
>> >
>> > > bottom of movement -- end of eccentric, isometric, start of concentric
>> >
>> > partials.
>> >
>> > > Fiber tension is always greatest there (think tension-force
>> >
>> > > phenomenon), lasts the longest as fatigue accumulates(my research and
>> >
>> > > highly respected researchers Komi and Hakkinen from Finland) and is a
>> >
>> > > great highest possible tension set extender not wasting valuable
>> >
>> > > mental energy on uselessly low, detrimental or non existent fiber
>> > tensions
>> >
>> > attempting full ROM movements.
>> >
>> > > Do partials to complete failure that is less and less movement to zero
>> >
>> > > -- but not max intensity (totally psyched out -- competition effort)!
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > Jerry
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > Any remarks? -- Negative remarks welcomed!
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > Jerry Telle
>> >
>> > > lakewood CO USA
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Modify/cancel your subscription at:
>> >
>> > http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>> >
>> > Sign all letters with full name & city of residence if you wish them to
>> be
>> >
>> > published!
>> >
>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >
>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >
>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

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2a

TELLE VS JONES

Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:50 am (PST) . Posted by:

"JRTELLE@AOL.COM"

Dear Supertrainers,
Below are my latest thoughts on resistance training. I havepresented these over the years, apparently to no avail, to some of the biggest names inresearch and physiology.
It is now glaringly apparent that unless one has a stronglifting background that they will have no idea what they are researching andresults they find. Hatfield is a huge example of this. Fred is only about 10X'ssmarter than Arthur Jones of Nautilus fame, who many still believe to be adesign genius. He was actually a moron when it came to research and design --telling more lies and exaggerations along the way than a most any of us fromthat era are willing to believe.
Anyway, Kim Goss and I were to write a Jones -- force-strengthcurve article for BFS (Bigger-Faster-Stronger) and Kim said it needed to be atmost, 4 pages. After 64 pages I knew I was way past any help to Kim who wrote agood article anyway. But I was well into having a great time crystallizingpresent beliefs and venting on Arthur who I had hated from the very beginning!If you were aware of resistance training from the early 70's through the 90'syou were aware of his grossly offensive style. Over the years he challenged,be-littled, called anyone stupid or much worse who did not agree with him. Healways carried and often brandished a 357 magnum and was known to use both endsof it to increase his fear factor for his paranoid pathological ends. Hethreatened condescendingly in the most inappropriate manner, everyone in theweight training industry – even Bill Pearl who somehow had Jones pretty muchfigured out and also according to Roach who wrote the wildly well researchedand interesting "MUSCLE, SMOKE & MIRRORS Vol I, II & III. Volume IIfocuses pretty much on Arthur's tactics -- including contributions and negative legacies he left behind. 90% ofthe Jones information comes from this book.

I was inventing my own devices along the way and even wroteJones on a # occasions to tell him I had better ways of training and varyingresistance. Every time he said we were all idiots who couldn't find our ----with either hand I was spurned onward as he brought back in full force thememories of bullies from days past! Since I never got any death threats like Pearl and did he probably didn't even seemy writings. Finally in the mid 90's I had a chance to meet with him eyeball toeyeball..

This expanding paper has many objectives:
• the history and definition of FORCE/STRENGTH & RESISTANCE CURVES.
• what force curves are and how to utilize this informationin your training. This gets involved rather quickly, but if I keep thetrain of concept from basic andthen advance it at rates we both will understand we will know more about forcecurves and critical concepts that will put both of our understandings way overthe contemporary "curve!!"

We will see that
• most expert trainers have only a cursory idea what thesecurves really are,
• why machines AND FREE WEIGHTS have failed to live up totheir potentials in the past and,
• how and why free weights are the very best resistance and,
• how we can use this information for dramatically improvingour and our clients training –and lastly
• what the future directions may be.
Much of the paper is framed w/ my private battles w/ Jones(though he had no idea) AND my private battles with understanding and utilizing the present state of the hypertrophy, strength and power art andhow to best present these ideas to others.

Here are some excerpts from the ?? pages and continually expendingarticle with MOST editorializing omitted.

A TALE OF TWO INVENTORS A GENIUS AND A DUMB JOCK
A Jones from every indication was a free spirited, oftenvolatile, terribly intelligent(in some ways) adventurer from his very earliestdays. He was born on a lightening bolt into a family of Doctors……..with a huge superiority complex.

TELLE THE LESS THAN MENTIONABLE EARLY DAYS
(Un)FortunatelyI was born to a rocket scientist ----- with a yet to be recognized mentaldisorder ADD -- which eventually matured into ADD/BIPOLAR II. I was the quintessential playground whipping post andcollector of sand, a goofy looking (and probably acting) tall, gangly yearahead in school, precocious reader reading at the 8th grade level inthe 2nd grade --with a huge inferiority complex.
-----------------muchdeleted-----------------------
…….. The difference between my research machine andisokinetics research by noted researchers(Komi & Hakkineen) or isometrics(Jones claim) is it measured expressed force DYNAMICALLY over theentire ROM using INERTIAL (actual weight) as the primaryresistance and if necessary an active hydraulic cylinder, which couldeither "fill in" end of concentric rep resistance forces or actively createimmense (& possibly quite dangerous) eccentric forces)……INERTIAL RESISTANCEIS THE MUST FACTOR IN RESEARCH AND TRAINING ….. MUCH DELETED –inertialresistance must be provided at the EIC phase for many different reasons-------------

PERTINENT FACTS
1. Of great and unfortunate co-incidence isokinetic forcecurves measured mostly at joint rotations of 90° to 300° per second apparentlyvalidated the max isometric measuring of different positions over the ROM (withrests between efforts) manifestations ………. That is the general isokinetic curveshape was similar to the isometric curve with the isometric being ofconsiderably greater magnitude and isokinetic concentric curves decreasingsymmetrically in force as joint rotation speeds increased.

2. ……… Now, if you will, think back to what a max, raw/noshirt or suit, attempt bench or squat felt like. You may remember an energydepleting eccentric lowering -- an explosive start, a …… grind it out throughthe sticking point almost to lockout AND …… a failure!!! -- that or an …excruciating lockout. And all this at the point where your strength was tested……… (w/short movements in a power rack)…… 70-80% GREATER than the initialstarting phase!!!!! So where did your big 500 lb lockout strength go? Why ofcourse -- to ………that RUINATOR OF Max attempts……….. FATIGUE!! -- and allunder 2.5 seconds !GRAPH , 2, successful lift or --------------.

The same thing happens over a set of repetitions -- athleteforces at the end of the concentric START of eccentric reps fades faster thanthe concentric beginnings and eccentric end phases of each movement………….

Regardless, after much trial and error I had to face theinevitable reality. The concept of a single athlete expressed force curve foranyone, FOR ANY MOVEMENT, was totally wrong.

In essence athlete force varies eachrep as a function of time, movement position, eccentric or concentric movement,rate of movement, effort intensity, fatigue, time of day and, and, and ????? Not to mention the concept of a full ROM (AND TRAINING TO FAILURE) asbeing questionable.

In essence there is no consistent forcecurve configuration.. There are as "good as possible" fixed curves for machineswith all of their huge attendant problems."
Simply(?) put, every exercise has a momentary measureableexternal expressed athlete force curve, as a function of the above variables,which describes the max potential expressed force of the exerciser over, NOTonly the entire ROM, if desired BUT PARTICULARLY AND MORE IMPORTANTLY,OVER THE RANGE OF MOTION/MOVEMENT PHASE THAT GENERATES THE HIGHEST INTERNALMUSCLE FIBER TENSIONS……………
………. AT THIS POINT TRAINING TAKEAWAYS
1. When using bands or chains increase the top of movementloading by 15% on exercises with an ascending or increasing force profile,squats, deadlifts and presses during the rep. Drop of the chains 2 reps before failure and continue……….
…………………. with intelligent training a max initial fast aspossible concentric movement effort and equal, or increased eccentric effortfocus -- again at the EIC Eccentric-isometric-Concentric phase -- whereFIBER TENSION starts out highest and resists fatigue the longest equates tomaximal "fresh" fiber tensions at the first rep and max momentary fatiguingfiber tension throughout the set.

Previously, max expressed and measureable forces,apparently regardless of fiber tension potentials, werethe primary considerations for resistance curves.

STRANGE BUT TRUE?
Resistance must remain highest during max potential FIBERTENSION movement phases regardless of and/or at the expense of resistancelevels of weaker useless, energy depleting fiber tension movement phases! As the typical set progresses and fatigue accumulates FULL ROM IS NOTONLY NOT BENEFICIAL BUT MOST OFTEN DETRIMENTAL TO MAX TENSILE HYPERTROPHYAND HYPERTROPHY STRENGTH GAINS....................

One study1…….demonstrated that … strength training at the shortest weakest fiber tensionphase did not transfer to …….. strength gains at this movement phase. "Thegains in strength were at long muscle lengths, with little change instrength at the short test lengths. (WHICH ARE OFTEN WHERE THE HIGHESTMEASUREABLE FORCES ARE, BENCH SQUAT—telle) As the training involvedthe same relative …….. loading of the muscle through the full range ofmovement—that is, in relation to the angle-torque relation— proportionalincreases would be expected at all muscle lengths."

In other words the strength gains (hypertrophy?) werelimited to the longer muscle lengths despite (isometric) training andtesting over the full range of movement.

A mild relatively safe (no extraeccentrics at start of set but only during greatly fatigued phases), exampleusing the time tested 7,7,7 curl scenario with changes:
* AT TRAINING - NOT MAX INTENSITIES stopping 1-2 reps short of total failure at each stage.
1.the first 7-12 reps should be full curl movements, 2. thenext 7-12 reps should be bottom 1/2 of movements! 3. Next, shorter and shorter partial movements until no movement isexpressed until movement stops. 4.Next cheating the bar 1/3 of way up and controlling the negative furtherextends the set and benefits. 5. Lastly: holding the bar in the stretched position until the thing drops.
…………..
……..Wasting huge amounts of (nervous?) system energy to"lock out" presses, deadlifts or squats "locks you out" of highest fibertensions, lower EIC partial movements, extended set training. Forget the fullROM force reps and do shorter and shorter EIC ROMS. This is "ALWAYS" during the "EICEIC" Eccentric, Isometric,Concentric movement phase ROM partials

………..The best exercise resistance equals,either as a percent of max (eccentric) and max concentric effort force, thepotential highest internal muscle fibers tensions NOT thehighest external force curve expressions. This is "ALWAYS"during the "EICEIC" Eccentric, Isometric, Concentricmovement phase.

……….As fatigue accumulates the EIC ROM decreases indegrees, scope, extent, all the way down from complete ROM to no movement andthe meagerest of eccentric tensions.

FOOTNOTES.
1. Graves JE, Pollock ML, JONES ARTHUR E, et al. Specificityof limited range of motion variable resistance training. Med Sci Sports Exerc1989;21:84–9

7. Jones could produce no records to have derived his variableresistance cam profiles. He claimed to have

1. measured the max isometric (resistance not moving) forceexpressions of groups of untrained peoples at many positions over the entireROM (range of movement/motion) AND with rests between efforts. This wasimpossible. This is because for many back exercises the start of movementstrength is 4-5 X's higher than end of movement strength. His resistanceincreases not decreases over the lifting ROM of every exercise.
2. he believed in increasing resistance to the "FULLYCONTRACTED" CIE top position, where the interrelating tension developingactin/myosin elements were in greatest contact -- interface to the greatestdegree -- at absolutely the lowest fiber tensions……..
He carried thisidea: a. disregardingreams of even his own, if he in fact did any, isometric test data..
b. disregarding the tension-length phenomenon firstdiscovered by Blitz in 18?? see above and
c. incorrectly misinterpreting the "ALL or NONE" process anda number of other concepts.
I remember writing to him when I first redesigned the camsto control for fatigue (somewhat) in the early '70's, I also remember writingto him with my research machine data in the mid 80's -- no reply.
After I had built and researched the entire mess by the mideighties I finally began to really understand the complexity and immensevariability of force, tension and resistance ………….
??????
Jerry Telle

Lakewood CO USA
Jjjjjj

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2b

Re: TELLE VS JONES

Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:19 am (PST) . Posted by:

"Exarchives@aol.com" exarchives

Very Nice - Dog a Man when he is dead. Well thanks to Arthur Jones, a
"dummy" like me exists to take his foundations to a "moronic" level. Well let me
tell you something, if his foundations were in stone today, there would be
a rational ray of hope. But the foundations that exist today in "exercise
fizzilogy" are worse than pathetic. I have to thank Arthur Jones from
moving me away from what exists in the worse than Silly/Macho Culture today.

David Landau Aventura, Florida

In a message dated 11/11/2012 12:50:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
JRTELLE@AOL.COM writes:

Dear Supertrainers,
Below are my latest thoughts on resistance training. I havepresented these
over the years, apparently to no avail, to some of the biggest names
inresearch and physiology.
It is now glaringly apparent that unless one has a stronglifting
background that they will have no idea what they are researching andresults they
find. Hatfield is a huge example of this. Fred is only about 10X'ssmarter than
Arthur Jones of Nautilus fame, who many still believe to be adesign
genius. He was actually a moron when it came to research and design --telling
more lies and exaggerations along the way than a most any of us fromthat era
are willing to believe.
Anyway, Kim Goss and I were to write a Jones -- force-strengthcurve
article for BFS (Bigger-Faster-Stronger) and Kim said it needed to be atmost, 4
pages. After 64 pages I knew I was way past any help to Kim who wrote agood
article anyway. But I was well into having a great time
crystallizingpresent beliefs and venting on Arthur who I had hated from the very beginning!If
you were aware of resistance training from the early 70's through the 90'
syou were aware of his grossly offensive style. Over the years he
challenged,be-littled, called anyone stupid or much worse who did not agree with him.
Healways carried and often brandished a 357 magnum and was known to use
both endsof it to increase his fear factor for his paranoid pathological
ends. Hethreatened condescendingly in the most inappropriate manner, everyone
in theweight training industry – even Bill Pearl who somehow had Jones pretty
muchfigured out and also according to Roach who wrote the wildly well
researchedand interesting "MUSCLE, SMOKE & MIRRORS Vol I, II & III. Volume
IIfocuses pretty much on Arthur's tactics -- including contributions and
negative legacies he left behind. 90% ofthe Jones information comes from this
book.

I was inventing my own devices along the way and even wroteJones on a #
occasions to tell him I had better ways of training and varyingresistance.
Every time he said we were all idiots who couldn't find our ----with either
hand I was spurned onward as he brought back in full force thememories of
bullies from days past! Since I never got any death threats like Pearl and
did he probably didn't even seemy writings. Finally in the mid
90's I had a chance to meet with him eyeball toeyeball..

This expanding paper has many objectives:
• the history and definition of FORCE/STRENGTH & RESISTANCE CURVES.
• what force curves are and how to utilize this informationin your
training. This gets involved rather quickly, but if I keep thetrain of concept
from basic andthen advance it at rates we both will understand we will know
more about forcecurves and critical concepts that will put both of our
understandings way overthe contemporary "curve!!"

We will see that
• most expert trainers have only a cursory idea what thesecurves really
are,
• why machines AND FREE WEIGHTS have failed to live up totheir potentials
in the past and,
• how and why free weights are the very best resistance and,
• how we can use this information for dramatically improvingour and our
clients training –and lastly
• what the future directions may be.
Much of the paper is framed w/ my private battles w/ Jones(though he had
no idea) AND my private battles with understanding and utilizing the present
state of the hypertrophy, strength and power art andhow to best present
these ideas to others.

Here are some excerpts from the ?? pages and continually expendingarticle
with MOST editorializing omitted.

A TALE OF TWO INVENTORS A GENIUS AND A DUMB JOCK
A Jones from every indication was a free spirited, oftenvolatile, terribly
intelligent(in some ways) adventurer from his very earliestdays. He was
born on a lightening bolt into a family of Doctors……..with a huge
superiority complex.

TELLE THE LESS THAN MENTIONABLE EARLY DAYS
(Un)FortunatelyI was born to a rocket scientist ----- with a yet to be
recognized mentaldisorder ADD -- which eventually matured into ADD/BIPOLAR II.
I was the quintessential playground whipping post andcollector of sand, a
goofy looking (and probably acting) tall, gangly yearahead in school,
precocious reader reading at the 8th grade level inthe 2nd grade --with a huge
inferiority complex.
-----------------muchdeleted-----------------------
…….. The difference between my research machine andisokinetics research
by noted researchers(Komi & Hakkineen) or isometrics(Jones claim) is it
measured expressed force DYNAMICALLY over theentire ROM using INERTIAL (actual
weight) as the primaryresistance and if necessary an active hydraulic
cylinder, which couldeither "fill in" end of concentric rep resistance forces
or actively createimmense (& possibly quite dangerous) eccentric forces)……
INERTIAL RESISTANCEIS THE MUST FACTOR IN RESEARCH AND TRAINING ….. MUCH
DELETED –inertialresistance must be provided at the EIC phase for many
different reasons-------------

PERTINENT FACTS
1. Of great and unfortunate co-incidence isokinetic forcecurves measured
mostly at joint rotations of 90° to 300° per second apparentlyvalidated the
max isometric measuring of different positions over the ROM (withrests
between efforts) manifestations ………. That is the general isokinetic curveshape
was similar to the isometric curve with the isometric being ofconsiderably
greater magnitude and isokinetic concentric curves decreasingsymmetrically
in force as joint rotation speeds increased.

2. ……… Now, if you will, think back to what a max, raw/noshirt or suit,
attempt bench or squat felt like. You may remember an energydepleting
eccentric lowering -- an explosive start, a …… grind it out throughthe sticking
point almost to lockout AND …… a failure!!! -- that or an …excruciating
lockout. And all this at the point where your strength was tested………
(w/short movements in a power rack)…… 70-80% GREATER than the initialstarting
phase!!!!! So where did your big 500 lb lockout strength go? Why ofcourse --
to ………that RUINATOR OF Max attempts……….. FATIGUE!! -- and allunder 2.5
seconds !GRAPH , 2, successful lift or --------------.

The same thing happens over a set of repetitions -- athleteforces at the
end of the concentric START of eccentric reps fades faster thanthe
concentric beginnings and eccentric end phases of each movement………….

Regardless, after much trial and error I had to face theinevitable
reality. The concept of a single athlete expressed force curve foranyone, FOR ANY
MOVEMENT, was totally wrong.

In essence athlete force varies eachrep as a function of time, movement
position, eccentric or concentric movement,rate of movement, effort
intensity, fatigue, time of day and, and, and ????? Not to mention the concept of a
full ROM (AND TRAINING TO FAILURE) asbeing questionable.

In essence there is no consistent forcecurve configuration.. There are as "
good as possible" fixed curves for machineswith all of their huge
attendant problems."
Simply(?) put, every exercise has a momentary measureableexternal
expressed athlete force curve, as a function of the above variables,which describes
the max potential expressed force of the exerciser over, NOTonly the
entire ROM, if desired BUT PARTICULARLY AND MORE IMPORTANTLY,OVER THE RANGE OF
MOTION/MOVEMENT PHASE THAT GENERATES THE HIGHEST INTERNALMUSCLE FIBER
TENSIONS……………
………. AT THIS POINT TRAINING TAKEAWAYS
1. When using bands or chains increase the top of movementloading by 15%
on exercises with an ascending or increasing force profile,squats, deadlifts
and presses during the rep. Drop of the chains 2 reps before failure and
continue……….
…………………. with intelligent training a max initial fast aspossible
concentric movement effort and equal, or increased eccentric effortfocus -- again
at the EIC Eccentric-isometric-Concentric phase -- whereFIBER TENSION
starts out highest and resists fatigue the longest equates tomaximal "fresh"
fiber tensions at the first rep and max momentary fatiguingfiber tension
throughout the set.

Previously, max expressed and measureable forces,apparently regardless of
fiber tension potentials, werethe primary considerations for resistance
curves.

STRANGE BUT TRUE?
Resistance must remain highest during max potential FIBERTENSION movement
phases regardless of and/or at the expense of resistancelevels of weaker
useless, energy depleting fiber tension movement phases! As the typical set
progresses and fatigue accumulates FULL ROM IS NOTONLY NOT BENEFICIAL BUT
MOST OFTEN DETRIMENTAL TO MAX TENSILE HYPERTROPHYAND HYPERTROPHY STRENGTH
GAINS....................

One study1…….demonstrated that … strength training at the shortest
weakest fiber tensionphase did not transfer to …….. strength gains at this
movement phase. "Thegains in strength were at long muscle lengths, with little
change instrength at the short test lengths. (WHICH ARE OFTEN WHERE THE
HIGHESTMEASUREABLE FORCES ARE, BENCH SQUAT—telle) As the training involvedthe
same relative …….. loading of the muscle through the full range ofmovement—
that is, in relation to the angle-torque relation— proportionalincreases
would be expected at all muscle lengths."

In other words the strength gains (hypertrophy?) werelimited to the longer
muscle lengths despite (isometric) training andtesting over the full range
of movement.

A mild relatively safe (no extraeccentrics at start of set but only during
greatly fatigued phases), exampleusing the time tested 7,7,7 curl scenario
with changes:
* AT TRAINING - NOT MAX INTENSITIES stopping 1-2 reps short of total
failure at each stage.
1.the first 7-12 reps should be full curl movements, 2. thenext
7-12 reps should be bottom 1/2 of movements! 3. Next, shorter and shorter
partial movements until no movement isexpressed until movement stops.
4.Next cheating the bar 1/3 of way up and controlling the negative
furtherextends the set and benefits. 5. Lastly:
holding the bar in the stretched position until the thing drops.
…………..
……..Wasting huge amounts of (nervous?) system energy to"lock out"
presses, deadlifts or squats "locks you out" of highest fibertensions, lower EIC
partial movements, extended set training. Forget the fullROM force reps
and do shorter and shorter EIC ROMS. This is "ALWAYS" during the "EICEIC"
Eccentric, Isometric,Concentric movement phase ROM partials

………..The best exercise resistance equals,either as a percent of max
(eccentric) and max concentric effort force, thepotential highest internal
muscle fibers tensions NOT thehighest external force curve expressions. This is "
ALWAYS"during the "EICEIC" Eccentric, Isometric, Concentricmovement
phase.

……….As fatigue accumulates the EIC ROM decreases indegrees, scope,
extent, all the way down from complete ROM to no movement andthe meagerest of
eccentric tensions.

FOOTNOTES.
1. Graves JE, Pollock ML, JONES ARTHUR E, et al. Specificityof limited
range of motion variable resistance training. Med Sci Sports Exerc1989;21:84–9

7. Jones could produce no records to have derived his variableresistance
cam profiles. He claimed to have

1. measured the max isometric (resistance not moving) forceexpressions of
groups of untrained peoples at many positions over the entireROM (range of
movement/motion) AND with rests between efforts. This wasimpossible. This
is because for many back exercises the start of movementstrength is 4-5 X's
higher than end of movement strength. His resistanceincreases not decreases
over the lifting ROM of every exercise.
2. he believed in increasing resistance to the "FULLYCONTRACTED" CIE top
position, where the interrelating tension developingactin/myosin elements
were in greatest contact -- interface to the greatestdegree -- at absolutely
the lowest fiber tensions……..
He carried thisidea: a. disregardingreams of even his own, if he
in fact did any, isometric test data..
b. disregarding the tension-length phenomenon firstdiscovered by Blitz in
18?? see above and
c. incorrectly misinterpreting the "ALL or NONE" process anda number of
other concepts.
I remember writing to him when I first redesigned the camsto control for
fatigue (somewhat) in the early '70's, I also remember writingto him with
my research machine data in the mid 80's -- no reply.
After I had built and researched the entire mess by the mideighties I
finally began to really understand the complexity and immensevariability of
force, tension and resistance ………….
??????
Jerry Telle

Lakewood CO USA
Jjjjjj

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2c

Re: TELLE VS JONES

Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:25 am (PST) . Posted by:

"John Casler" bioforce_inc

Subject: [Supertraining] TELLE VS JONES

Jerry Telle wrote:

Dear Supertrainers,
Below are my latest thoughts on resistance training. I havepresented these
over the years, apparently to no avail, to some of the biggest names
inresearch and physiology.
It is now glaringly apparent that unless one has a stronglifting background
that they will have no idea what they are researching andresults they find.
Hatfield is a huge example of this. Fred is only about 10X'ssmarter than
Arthur Jones of Nautilus fame, who many still believe to be adesign genius.
He was actually a moron when it came to research and design --telling more
lies and exaggerations along the way than a most any of us fromthat era are
willing to believe.

FOOTNOTES.
1. Graves JE, Pollock ML, JONES ARTHUR E, et al. Specificityof limited range
of motion variable resistance training. Med Sci Sports Exerc1989;21:84-9

7. Jones could produce no records to have derived his variableresistance cam
profiles. He claimed to have

1. measured the max isometric (resistance not moving) forceexpressions of
groups of untrained peoples at many positions over the entireROM (range of
movement/motion) AND with rests between efforts. This wasimpossible. This is
because for many back exercises the start of movementstrength is 4-5 X's
higher than end of movement strength. His resistanceincreases not decreases
over the lifting ROM of every exercise.
2. he believed in increasing resistance to the "FULLYCONTRACTED" CIE top
position, where the interrelating tension developingactin/myosin elements
were in greatest contact -- interface to the greatestdegree -- at absolutely
the lowest fiber tensions....
He carried thisidea:
a. disregardingreams of even his own, if he in fact did any, isometric test
data..
b. disregarding the tension-length phenomenon firstdiscovered by Blitz in
18?? see above and c. incorrectly misinterpreting the "ALL or NONE" process
anda number of other concepts.
I remember writing to him when I first redesigned the camsto control for
fatigue (somewhat) in the early '70's, I also remember writingto him with my
research machine data in the mid 80's -- no reply.
After I had built and researched the entire mess by the mideighties I
finally began to really understand the complexity and immensevariability of
force, tension and resistance .....

John Casler writes:

Hi Jerry, I too was somewhat enamored with Jones, Nautilus and the seemingly
more organized and scientific path he was following.

Eventually, I lost that feeling and respect as I realized that he had
followed a very limited path (isolation, and minimal stimulation) that
"seemed" to be well reasoned, but upon scrutinization was very off the mark.

While I did and still do enjoy His and other's exercise machines for what
they are, I do not subscribe to a large portion of what was expressed back
then as reasonable, logical, or fact.

That said, when Fitness, Athletics, and Strength Conditioning become your
lifestyle, the exploration of what he wanted to do, and eventually did, is
impressive, even if it was a technological step backward. There are MANY
goals to Loaded Force and Strength Training, and some tools are maybe better
than others, or even if they are not, they still provide benefit.

However, when you move from machines to principles and programs the world
expands exponentially and as you noted in a complex manner. In most of the
Jonesean principles and programs you will certainly serve many who are
simply looking for some basic strength and muscle gains. However, when you
move to the more advanced and athletic needs of Strength Conditioning, the
pathways are too restricted by those machines and principles.

In the end, I was MOST IMPRESSED with his business accomplishments and
overall effect he had on the commercial fitness industry. For decades, the
cammed machines he and imitators built dominated the nations (and world's)
health clubs. THAT IS IMPRESSIVE!! (even though it was regressive
technologically to the some of the REAL goals, it served others)

Regards,

John Casler
TRI-VECTOR 3-D Training Systems
Century City, CA

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3a

Re: Slow twitch hypertrophy.

Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:50 am (PST) . Posted by:

"JRTELLE@AOL.COM"

Hi John

SEE BELOW

John Casler writes:

I am a bit confused with the "assumption" that a muscle requires training to
fatigue or exhaustion for a strength or hypertrophic adaptation.

telle - right although there MAY be something to training at max momentary to a high degree of fatigue in as short a time span as possible. Many have suggested this Siff? Zatsiorsky ------

Casler writes: It is my understanding that the two primary stimuli to muscle
conditioning/adaptation for the qualities of Strength and Hypertrophy are
TENSION Levels and amount of WORK performed at those levels. The overload
parameters for these would be the level of Tension, and the Volume of Work
performed at those Tension Levels.

telle -- so does one do 95% of max reps X's 10-15 sets. Or 87% or 85%, or --------? with research suggesting that 80%+ is best for high threshold fibers? at max concentric speeds and ? eccentric speeds or w/ overload eccentrics which time and time again prove effective for hypertrophy! And do we know how far high threshold fibers are fatigued at 80%+? Perhaps they fatigue down to 40% or lower max tensions. Drop sets have proved effective with high momentary tensions surely past 40% for the high threshold!

Casler writes: A secondary metabolic stimulus would be fatigue/exhaustion but the
adaptation to that stimulus would be "ENDURANCE" and not strength or
hypertrophy.

telle-- depends on the rate and level of fatigue. Endurance training fatigues fibers to only a certain % at very slow rates?! Big difference maybe?

Casler writes: So if you want to cause the adaptation of strength and or hypertrophy, you
would employ "HIGH TENSIONS" and ADEQUATE WORK at those tensions to create
OVERLOAD. Attempting to cause fatigue or exhaustion would be more to
stimulating metabolic endurance.

telle -- Again what are "HIGH TENSIONS" and ADEQUATE WORK"? at those tensions. Much contrary evidence I believe though don't have time now to look it up.

Casler writes: It seems that the "set to failure" idea has somehow been assumed, when in
fact, it doesn't apply (in any way I can see) to building Strength, Speed,
or Hypertrophy. If one also wishes to cause an endurance adaptation, then
go to fatigue or exhaustion.

telle -- One does not need to train to failure ever really. For a huge number of reasons it is quite possible that training to 2 reps short of failure, or initiating lower phase partials instead of expending huge amounts of neural energies "locking out" failure or near failure loads -- AT TOP END PHASES OF MOVEMENTS THAT NO LONGER CAN DEVELOP ANY MEANINGFUL TENSIONS -- if they ever really did [TENSION - LENGTH AND ASYMMETRICAL TENSION/FORCE FATIGUE RATES] conserves vast amounts of neural energies for further high momentary high tension -- like drop sets -- work and for recovery I sent, I hope my opinions of these thoughts but may have to resend (OR SEND FOR FIRST TIME)

Jerry Telle

Lakewood CO USA

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3b

Re: Slow twitch hypertrophy.

Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:21 am (PST) . Posted by:

"Ralph Giarnella" ragiarn

JRT wrote

"Endurance training fatigues fibers to only a certain % at very slow rates?"

I am not sure that I understand what you mean by that statement.

My primary training is on a bicycle . The most common cadence for me is in the 80-90 rpm. Each leg does 80 - 90 reps/minute. A slow cadence is in the 50-60 rpm. At the higher cadence type I fibers are the predominant fibers being utilized. At the lower cadence more type IIa fibers are utilized.

A beginner will have difficulty riding 30-60 minutes at either cadence. With training seasoned cyclists can ride 5-6 hrs continuously. It is obvious that training increases time to fatigue. However the same training also increases power output. A beginner will have difficulty sustaining a continuous pace at 120-130 watts for 30-40 minutes. A seasoned cyclist can sustain power ratings of 250-350+watts for 5-6 hrs.

Ralph Giarnella MD
Southington Ct. USA

________________________________
From: "JRTELLE@AOL.COM" <JRTELLE@AOL.COM>
To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2012 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.

Hi John

SEE BELOW

John Casler writes:

I am a bit confused with the "assumption" that a muscle requires training to
fatigue or exhaustion for a strength or hypertrophic adaptation.

telle - right although there MAY be something to training at max momentary to a high degree of fatigue in as short a time span as possible. Many have suggested this Siff? Zatsiorsky ------

Casler writes: It is my understanding that the two primary stimuli to muscle
conditioning/adaptation for the qualities of Strength and Hypertrophy are
TENSION Levels and amount of WORK performed at those levels. The overload
parameters for these would be the level of Tension, and the Volume of Work
performed at those Tension Levels.

telle -- so does one do 95% of max reps X's 10-15 sets. Or 87% or 85%, or --------? with research suggesting that 80%+ is best for high threshold fibers? at max concentric speeds and ? eccentric speeds or w/ overload eccentrics which time and time again prove effective for hypertrophy! And do we know how far high threshold fibers are fatigued at 80%+? Perhaps they fatigue down to 40% or lower max tensions. Drop sets have proved effective with high momentary tensions surely past 40% for the high threshold!

Casler writes: A secondary metabolic stimulus would be fatigue/exhaustion but the
adaptation to that stimulus would be "ENDURANCE" and not strength or
hypertrophy.

telle-- depends on the rate and level of fatigue. Endurance training fatigues fibers to only a certain % at very slow rates?! Big difference maybe?

Casler writes: So if you want to cause the adaptation of strength and or hypertrophy, you
would employ "HIGH TENSIONS" and ADEQUATE WORK at those tensions to create
OVERLOAD. Attempting to cause fatigue or exhaustion would be more to
stimulating metabolic endurance.

telle -- Again what are "HIGH TENSIONS" and ADEQUATE WORK"? at those tensions. Much contrary evidence I believe though don't have time now to look it up.

Casler writes: It seems that the "set to failure" idea has somehow been assumed, when in
fact, it doesn't apply (in any way I can see) to building Strength, Speed,
or Hypertrophy. If one also wishes to cause an endurance adaptation, then
go to fatigue or exhaustion.

telle -- One does not need to train to failure ever really. For a huge number of reasons it is quite possible that training to 2 reps short of failure, or initiating lower phase partials instead of expending huge amounts of neural energies "locking out" failure or near failure loads -- AT TOP END PHASES OF MOVEMENTS THAT NO LONGER CAN DEVELOP ANY MEANINGFUL TENSIONS -- if they ever really did [TENSION - LENGTH AND ASYMMETRICAL TENSION/FORCE FATIGUE RATES] conserves vast amounts of neural energies for further high momentary high tension -- like drop sets -- work and for recovery I sent, I hope my opinions of these thoughts but may have to resend (OR SEND FOR FIRST TIME)

Jerry Telle

Lakewood CO USA

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3c

Re: Slow twitch hypertrophy.

Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:22 am (PST) . Posted by:

"Giovanni Ciriani" gciriani

Ralph,
The indications give for higher/lower cadence utilization and slow/fast
fiber utilization needs to be put in the contest of power (wattage)
developed, otherwise it's meaningless. Actually if you are pedaling at the
optimal cadence for each given wattage, the lower the wattage, the lower
the cadence and the lower the percentage of fast twitch fiber utilized.
Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 1:30 PM, Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@yahoo.com> wrote:

> **
>
>
> JRT wrote
>
>
> "Endurance training fatigues fibers to only a certain % at very slow
> rates?"
>
> I am not sure that I understand what you mean by that statement.
>
> My primary training is on a bicycle . The most common cadence for me is
> in the 80-90 rpm. Each leg does 80 - 90 reps/minute. A slow cadence is in
> the 50-60 rpm. At the higher cadence type I fibers are the predominant
> fibers being utilized. At the lower cadence more type IIa fibers are
> utilized.
>
> A beginner will have difficulty riding 30-60 minutes at either cadence.
> With training seasoned cyclists can ride 5-6 hrs continuously. It is
> obvious that training increases time to fatigue. However the same training
> also increases power output. A beginner will have difficulty sustaining a
> continuous pace at 120-130 watts for 30-40 minutes. A seasoned cyclist can
> sustain power ratings of 250-350+watts for 5-6 hrs.
>
>
> Ralph Giarnella MD
> Southington Ct. USA
>
> ________________________________
> From: "JRTELLE@AOL.COM" <JRTELLE@AOL.COM>
> To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2012 1:45 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
>
>
>
> Hi John
>
> SEE BELOW
>
> John Casler writes:
>
> I am a bit confused with the "assumption" that a muscle requires training
> to
> fatigue or exhaustion for a strength or hypertrophic adaptation.
>
> telle - right although there MAY be something to training at max momentary
> to a high degree of fatigue in as short a time span as possible. Many have
> suggested this Siff? Zatsiorsky ------
>
> Casler writes: It is my understanding that the two primary stimuli to
> muscle
> conditioning/adaptation for the qualities of Strength and Hypertrophy are
> TENSION Levels and amount of WORK performed at those levels. The overload
> parameters for these would be the level of Tension, and the Volume of Work
> performed at those Tension Levels.
>
> telle -- so does one do 95% of max reps X's 10-15 sets. Or 87% or 85%, or
> --------? with research suggesting that 80%+ is best for high threshold
> fibers? at max concentric speeds and ? eccentric speeds or w/ overload
> eccentrics which time and time again prove effective for hypertrophy! And
> do we know how far high threshold fibers are fatigued at 80%+? Perhaps they
> fatigue down to 40% or lower max tensions. Drop sets have proved effective
> with high momentary tensions surely past 40% for the high threshold!
>
> Casler writes: A secondary metabolic stimulus would be fatigue/exhaustion
> but the
> adaptation to that stimulus would be "ENDURANCE" and not strength or
> hypertrophy.
>
> telle-- depends on the rate and level of fatigue. Endurance training
> fatigues fibers to only a certain % at very slow rates?! Big difference
> maybe?
>
> Casler writes: So if you want to cause the adaptation of strength and or
> hypertrophy, you
> would employ "HIGH TENSIONS" and ADEQUATE WORK at those tensions to create
> OVERLOAD. Attempting to cause fatigue or exhaustion would be more to
> stimulating metabolic endurance.
>
> telle -- Again what are "HIGH TENSIONS" and ADEQUATE WORK"? at those
> tensions. Much contrary evidence I believe though don't have time now to
> look it up.
>
> Casler writes: It seems that the "set to failure" idea has somehow been
> assumed, when in
> fact, it doesn't apply (in any way I can see) to building Strength, Speed,
> or Hypertrophy. If one also wishes to cause an endurance adaptation, then
> go to fatigue or exhaustion.
>
> telle -- One does not need to train to failure ever really. For a huge
> number of reasons it is quite possible that training to 2 reps short of
> failure, or initiating lower phase partials instead of expending huge
> amounts of neural energies "locking out" failure or near failure loads --
> AT TOP END PHASES OF MOVEMENTS THAT NO LONGER CAN DEVELOP ANY MEANINGFUL
> TENSIONS -- if they ever really did [TENSION - LENGTH AND ASYMMETRICAL
> TENSION/FORCE FATIGUE RATES] conserves vast amounts of neural energies for
> further high momentary high tension -- like drop sets -- work and for
> recovery I sent, I hope my opinions of these thoughts but may have to
> resend (OR SEND FOR FIRST TIME)
>
> Jerry Telle
>
> Lakewood CO USA
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

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3d

Slow twitch hypertrophy.

Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:23 am (PST) . Posted by:

"John Casler" bioforce_inc

John Casler wrote:

I am a bit confused with the "assumption" that a muscle requires training to
fatigue or exhaustion for a strength or hypertrophic adaptation.

telle - right although there MAY be something to training at max momentary
to a high degree of fatigue in as short a time span as possible. Many have
suggested this Siff? Zatsiorsky ------

John Casler writes: If we consider that using a relatively high load causes
the highest % of immediate activation of ALL (types) Motor units, then we
know two things:

1) The tensions will be greatest during these reps
2) Fatigue will occur quickly

To understand this we must also agree that in ANY loaded action that causes
a performance decrement, that decrement would be considered a "fatigue".

Fatigues can be due to lack of (but not limited to) the following:

1) Inability of the motor units to create action
2) Metabolic fatigues due to lack of substrates or gases
3) Metabolic inhibition due to lack of clearing of metabolites
4) Motor Impulse reduction of strength

The "fatigue based" systems tend to rely on the "size principle" whereby
your actual intention is to fatigue Motor Units and recruit those in wait as
the fatigue increases and some MU's move off line.

The "tension based" systems will AVOID metabolic and motor-neural fatigue,
in favor of additional sets with the same heavy loads to accumulate
additional HIGH TENSION exposures (more work) over these sets.

I have read of a system that seems to employ this to a good result, and it
is used as follows:

1) Select a heavy load that allows 6-12 reps
2) Employ a Compensatory Acceleration style of rep
3) Stop the set at the first signs of "slowing" which demonstrates fatigue

This technique/style will activate a HIGH % of MU's of all types and load
them with high MOTOR activation (increasing motor impulse strength) and high
TENSION to all the MU's involved.

Stopping the set at the first signs of slowing (fatigue) will allow
additional (again high load/tension) reps and sets to be performed with less
fatigue, so you end up with far more High Tension exposures overall.

This is nothing new, as any good 3x5, 5x5, or 10 x 10 program using the same
heavy load is like this.

There is no comparison between this and a Single Set to Failure, or low sets
to failure (fatigue based systems) overall, if sufficient recovery is
presented to accommodate the greater stimulus package.

This is not an indictment of the value of fatigue based systems, but only a
contrast if ones goal is to activate as many Motor Units as possible each
set, and stimulate hypertrophy and strength. If you employ a "fatigue
based" system to attack the TYPE I's you will have a far more difficult
task, because as the TYPE II lose ability, the TYPE I will not have ability
to act on the HEAVY LOAD, so you will need to use a lighter load overall.

Do be aware that in a program like a 10x10 the latter sets WILL show some
fatigue depending on the rest/recovery between sets.

And for clarification please realize that a 1RM is actually a "set to
failure". This means the fatigues from the 1st REP accumulate to prohibit
another rep. In the case of low rep REP MAXES the fatigue is not of the
metabolic type, but of the Motor-Neural and Motor Unit type. This is why a
1RM workout of multiple sets of 1RM, is not the best method to build
strength and size for most, even though it might seem quite logical.

What occurs, is that it reduces the ability of the muscle to respond with
the same force as the first rep, but that single rep DID NOT fatigue the
muscle enough for growth. However, if you use a Heavy load that allows a
4plus rep output (again at maximum compensatory acceleration) then you
activate a greater number of MU's than a single (1RM) effort. But at some
point the load becomes TOO light and acceleration is too great, and you lose
the battle and end up with a metabolic fatigue based set.

And finally, it is also important to know that "performance" is everything
and the way you perform each rep in the set will determine the outcome. Rep
speeds, accelerations, rest between reps (as in rest/pause) actual TUT and
TUL, and other factors will determine the actual stimulus package overall.

Regards,

John Casler
TRI-VECTOR 3-D Training Systems
Century City, CA

-||||--------||||-

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3e

Re: Slow twitch hypertrophy.

Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:24 am (PST) . Posted by:

"Eric Serrano"

Partially true

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 9, 2012, at 4:12 PM, "John Casler" <bioforce.inc@gte.net> wrote:

>
>
> Subject: RE: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
>
> John Casler writes:
>
> I am a bit confused with the "assumption" that a muscle requires training to
> fatigue or exhaustion for a strength or hypertrophic adaptation.
>
> It is my understanding that the two primary stimuli to muscle
> conditioning/adaptation for the qualities of Strength and Hypertrophy are
> TENSION Levels and amount of WORK performed at those levels. The overload
> parameters for these would be the level of Tension, and the Volume of Work
> performed at those Tension Levels.
>
> A secondary metabolic stimulus would be fatigue/exhaustion but the
> adaptation to that stimulus would be "ENDURANCE" and not strength or
> hypertrophy.
>
> So if you want to cause the adaptation of strength and or hypertrophy, you
> would employ "HIGH TENSIONS" and ADEQUATE WORK at those tensions to create
> OVERLOAD. Attempting to cause fatigue or exhaustion would be more to
> stimulating metabolic endurance.
>
> It seems that the "set to failure" idea has somehow been assumed, when in
> fact, it doesn't apply (in any way I can see) to building Strength, Speed,
> or Hypertrophy. If one also wishes to cause an endurance adaptation, then
> go to fatigue or exhaustion.
>
> Regards,
>
> John Casler
> TRI-VECTOR 3-D Training Systems
> Century City, CA
>
> -||||--------||||-
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Monday 12 November 2012

[Supertraining] Digest Number 4628

12 New Messages

Messages

1a

Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:50 am (PST) . Posted by:

1b

Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:22 am (PST) . Posted by:

1c

Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:24 am (PST) . Posted by:

1d

Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:25 am (PST) . Posted by:

2a

Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:50 am (PST) . Posted by:

2b

Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:19 am (PST) . Posted by:

2c

Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:25 am (PST) . Posted by:

3a

Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:50 am (PST) . Posted by:

3b

Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:21 am (PST) . Posted by:

3c

Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:22 am (PST) . Posted by:

3d

Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:23 am (PST) . Posted by:

3e

Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:24 am (PST) . Posted by:

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