Thursday 12 July 2012

[Supertraining] Digest Number 4590

3 New Messages

Digest #4590
1a
Re: Olympic Games Blades Sprinter - Comments? by "CoachJ1@aol.com" coachj12002
1b
1c

Messages

Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:01 am (PDT) . Posted by:

"CoachJ1@aol.com" coachj12002

Hi Nick!

In a message dated 7/10/2012 8:56:51 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
nick.tatalias@gmail.com writes:

The science seems to say that the blades give him an advantage* in a
race*,
mainly no fatigue in returning energy at top speed running

You are indeed accurate that a couple of the Rice researchers did find the
blades conferring an advantage. However, the Anerobic Speed Reserve tests
performed at Rice did not show Pistorius fatiguing any differently than
able bodied sprinters.

"Based on the data," says Weyand, "the blades do not confer an enhanced
ability to hold speed over a 400m race."

So, the controversy involves another research finding.

Here is the public statement issued by Weyand/Bundle back in September of
2011:


"The sprinting mechanics of Oscar Pistorius: Because the artificial lower
limbs of Mr. Pistorius weigh only half as much as an intact lower-limb, he
is not bounded by the swing time minimum that applies to athletes with
biological limbs. Mr. Pistorius can reposition his lightweight, artificial
limbs in 0.28 seconds, and therefore 20% more rapidly than most intact-limb
athletes. To appreciate just how artificial Mr. Pistorius' swing time is,
consider that the average limb repositioning time of six former 100-meter world
record holders (Ben Johnson, Carl Lewis, Donovan Bailey, Maurice Greene,
Tim Montgomery, and Justin Gatlin) is 0.34 seconds. Mr. Pistorius' limb
repositioning times are 15.7% more brief than six of the fastest male sprinters
in recorded human history.
Reduced limb repositioning times allow Mr. Pistorius to spend less time in
the air between steps. Shorter aerial periods, in turn, substantially
reduce how hard Mr. Pistorius must hit the ground during each stance period to
lift and move his body forward into the next step. Hence, the net effect of
lightweight prosthetic limbs that artificially reduce the swing and aerial
phases of the stride is to substantially reduce how hard Mr. Pistorius
must hit the ground to run at the same speeds as his intact-limb competitors.
In this sense, the level of sprinting athleticism required for Mr.
Pistorius to achieve world class speeds is dramatically reduced compared to his
intact limb competitors. Mr. Pistorius attains world-class sprinting speeds
with the ground forces and foot-ground contact times of a slow and
relatively uncompetitive runner. Mr. Pistorius' intact-limb competitors, with
natural limb weights and swing times, lack this option, and therefore must
achieve their speeds via exclusively biological means. Mr. Pistorius, in
contrast, achieves these speeds through the use of technology.
Indeed, the gait anomalies of Mr. Pistorius are so large that they can be
observed with a moderately experienced eye. Mr. Pistorius, like slow
intact-limb runners, spends the majority of his race time on the ground while his
competitors, in contrast, spend the majority of their race time in the
air."
Ken Jakalski
Lisle High School
Lisle, IL USA

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:01 am (PDT) . Posted by:

"deadliftdiva@comcast.net"

Hi Nick and thank you for the post :).

I think the point of adversity in daily life is a good point to raise when we examine the inclusion of the physically challenged athlete into the mainstream sport. But if we also examine what makes us admire athletes that we select to admire - sometimes it's the performance, sometimes it's the personality or appearance, and sometimes it's the personal adversity or challenge the athlete has overcome to be there. The media gives us the background of athletes at the Games and shows us this one has lost a mother or father, this one has overcome a severe illness, or this one has overcome economic challenges to be here. The very journey to the Games is one of trial and challenge to your body, mind, values and other things that make us admire the athletes who arrive there.

Sleep disruption which you raise is a common problem in peaking training for many athletes overall and women of a certain age in particular function through their daily lives for decades through this particular malfunction (note this is HUMOR, people... :) from a 51 yo woman). I am by no means minimizing the physical inconveniences you cite - I'm just relating that women on a whole tend to get less sleep it seems throughout our lives, training at a high level just makes it happen to a greater extent in my experience... I recall reading that some scientists believe the night before is not as critical to performance, but 2 nights out. I've also been around other athletes who slept poorly, failed to eat breakfast as they were the sort to hurl violently if they did, and yet competed quite ably. Again, not as severe as a physical disability, but we could wonder if they would do better athletically on a full night's sleep and proper food.

We could also wonder how the athlete would perform without their disability.... without the disability, would Oscar be quick enough to be invited to the Games? Without the disability, would Oscar be spurred to train hard? Would he have the same motivation? Without the blades, would Oscar have a Nike (trademarked etc) contract? That one is "probably not".

I looked up the entry from Great Britain and compared times with Oscar's - and GB's about 1.5 seconds slower. Does this mean he should not be present at the Games? No, clearly. Is his time slow? Yes, compared to Oscar's best and the WR....but then nobody's coming close to that WR at present? There is no Michael Johnson out there with golden shoes at present... even if Oscar does not advance out of his heat, he still has participated and that leaves all the questions open.

The physical disability and its side effects to training and daily life do have a significant effect on the athlete and are of serious consideration, the increased vulnerability to infection or the problems of heat moderation with some athletes in this situation as well (inability to properly get rid of heat can also cause more dehydration and increase injury potential in some sports like PL as well as the endurance sports). Accommodation of bench pressers with disability is now fairly common with a wider bench platform and a strap for stabilization plus assistance on and off the bench into position as needed. No restriction against attempting the open records, and a special record set against their peers in recognition of the challenges of the physically challenged athlete.

Recently USAPL women's nationals included a woman with one leg who performed the full meet, including the squat. Performing what essentially was a single legged back squat to the depth required below parallel is one of superior balance as well as the will to compete... coaching someone with both legs intact is challenge enough to anyone who has worked with newbies in PL, let alone the spotting and other considerations with an athlete using a single leg. In addition to the usual hazards of someone failing a lift forward, backward, or not coming up, you have the potential of losing the athlete and the bar sideways...a rare event for those on 2 legs.

Lastly, I think you do raise a considerable point of the blades on a wet track, and this is London. His times have also varied more than you might otherwise expect and the nerves of racing at this level vs. his experience and the huge media presence will also be interesting factors. My understanding is also that with any prosthetic device, there can be irritation of the junction and other fitting issues that can vary and it would be likely that fit is critical with the blades for best performance.

Can it also be possible that the surface/style of the track also may have an impact on blade performance? That perhaps laboratory conditions being most advantageous for the blade performance may not be achievable in the field? Say the friction coefficient being proper for best push off and other factors vs the reality of wet tracks, different conditions (like boards indoors for example - would he be able to maintain traction on an indoor track at his best pace coupled with a steeper curve?). Would the blade in future have a sort of 'tread' or a 'shoe' that would be changeable like the length of a spike or the shoes another athlete might use for the conditions? Would the IOC and track overlords (the international federation) put a limit on the blade to prohibit any personal modifications or other advantages? Shoes and other devices used by conventional athletes must be provided for inspection if there are questions...other ways of adding to one's abilities are strictly monitored or controlled by testing...

Thanks again for the excellent discussion :) and we shall see what happens!

The Phantom
aka Linda Schaefer, CMT/RMT, competing powerlifter
Denver, Colorado, USA

----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Tatalias" <nick.tatalias@gmail.com>
To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, July 9, 2012 3:28:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Olympic Games Blades Sprinter - Comments?

Hi Linda and all

I have wondered about this for some time and these are my current musings
on the subject. Since Oscar hails from my neck of the woods I am absorbed
by his story. For me it comes in several parts. My coach has been the
Para olympic coach for the SA powerlifting at the Olympics including
Sydney, Athens and Bejing, and his association with the paraolympic teams
perhaps gives me some insight, perhaps not.

Firstly Oscar only just qualified for this event, he is unlikely to beat
many, if he progresses past his heat this will be an oustanding achievement.

The science seems to say that the blades give him an advantage* in a race*,
mainly no fatigue in returning energy at top speed running , however his
start is compromised as he does not have the calf muscles and foot
extension to help generate starting forces and as with all athletes there
is no energy to return at that stage of the race. In the wet Oscars
acceleration is very poor (thinking of London weather I wonder about
this). But advantage or not for Oscar for me what that argument neglects to
cover is that competing at the higher levels and running fast in a race is
only possible through hard training and the ability to recover from the
training. Its hard to quantify but I watch the paraolympic athletes who
train at our gym (bench pressers mostly) and life for them is hard much
harder than for able body athletes, everything from going to the toilet to
getting into bed is hard. The organisms ability to recover is compromised
by the level of other stressors. This compromises the athletes ability to
recover. Meaning that training is less effective (relatively). Although
Oscar is well adapted to his life, his life is just that much harder to get
through daily than is an able bodied athlete, Oscar suffers from
compromised training recovery in the same way that a clean athlete suffers
relative to a drug assisted athlete. I remember reading a post on this
site last year about sleep deprivation leading to a significant, about 20%
loss in performance and recovery (if memory serves me correctly) it struck
me that for the para athletes there whole life is compromised and recovery
compromised may equate to a loss in performance similar in magnitude, pure
speculation of course, but I think a worthy discussion topic.

I think of a fellow gym rat who at the worlds last year the day before he
was due to compete suffered from a pressure sore, an affliction suffered by
wheel chair bound people. He was unable to compete (he may have medaled
given his gym lifts) and since then he has spent over 6months in hospital
with repeated skin grafts and operations. He has not been able to train
even. This is an extreme situation, and perhaps overly dramatic but I
think that it reiterates the point about how much harder life is for
athletes with disability.

Finally what do sports represent and why do we love to watch sports for me
it shows people's finer traits namely the ability of people to overcome
adversity, hard work, fairness in competition and these are an inspiration
to us all. For me Oscar is each of those, some may contest fairness, but
for me his participation is fair and above all inspirational.

Regards
Nick Tatalias
Johannesburg
South Africa

On 5 July 2012 21:29, < deadliftdiva@comcast.net > wrote:

> **
>
>
> A man much previously discussed on our board is now entered in two running
> events at the Summer Games.
>
> For discussion, I'd like to ask our group a couple of questions:
>
> 1. Will inclusion of Oscar and his blades end up impairing the Special
> Olympics and the other special Games for those with physical and mental
> challenges by encouraging such entrants to pass up them up for the
> mainstream?
>
> 2. Are the blades themselves "fair" against the meat feet and legs of the
> other competitors? There has been some discussion about the energy savings
> and other concerns - that the blades are more "springy" and possibly
> "better" than meat feet/legs?
>
> 3. If you believe the blades are "fair" for running events, would you also
> believe they retain that "fairness" if you were to see them entered in the
> high jump or other more "springy" events? Would they be an "unfair"
> advantage in say, high hurtles as well?
>
> 4. If Oscar ends up defeating the non-challenged entrants (the non bladed
> entrants), what do you believe will be the result of this and do you think
> it will result in a ban? Court challenges as to the "fairness" of the
> entry?
>
> My personal opinion is that although shoes have been changing and
> improving over time, they do not account for the springy nature of the
> blades, nor do they account for the lack of energy expenditure or oxygen
> debt that limbs do. We penalize many means of changing one's energy profile
> - like blood doping, etc. While the entrant is fast enough and will bring a
> great deal of attention to the events, I'm not sure it will be a continued
> feature of the games, that the inclusion may encourage some attempts to
> mimic the effect of the blades by way of devices not currently allowed or
> other means yet to be determined. That athletes without blades may find
> themselves behind someone with what was previously considered a
> disadvantage in sport and become desperate to keep up...any way they can.
> Gold medals mean money and livelihood, sometimes for the family of the
> winner for life in many countries. There's too much at stake...
>
> I look forward to reading the discussion and see what really happens with
> this amazing athlete and the Games themselves.
>
> the Phantom
> aka Linda Schaefer, CMT/RMT, competing powerlifter
> Denver, Colorado, USA
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:57 pm (PDT) . Posted by:

"deadliftdiva@comcast.net"

Another thing that struck me in reading this is that the blades have less "wind resistance" than a heavily muscled leg with a shoe on it?

At the level we are examining, all advantage or disadvantage need to be considered...

The Phantom
aka Linda Schaefer, CMT/RMT, competing powerlifter
Denver, Colorado, USA

----- Original Message -----
From: CoachJ1@aol.com
To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 8:30:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Olympic Games Blades Sprinter - Comments?

Hi Nick!

In a message dated 7/10/2012 8:56:51 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
nick.tatalias@gmail.com writes:

The science seems to say that the blades give him an advantage* in a
race*,
mainly no fatigue in returning energy at top speed running

You are indeed accurate that a couple of the Rice researchers did find the
blades conferring an advantage. However, the Anerobic Speed Reserve tests
performed at Rice did not show Pistorius fatiguing any differently than
able bodied sprinters.

"Based on the data," says Weyand, "the blades do not confer an enhanced
ability to hold speed over a 400m race."

So, the controversy involves another research finding.

Here is the public statement issued by Weyand/Bundle back in September of
2011:

"The sprinting mechanics of Oscar Pistorius: Because the artificial lower
limbs of Mr. Pistorius weigh only half as much as an intact lower-limb, he
is not bounded by the swing time minimum that applies to athletes with
biological limbs. Mr. Pistorius can reposition his lightweight, artificial
limbs in 0.28 seconds, and therefore 20% more rapidly than most intact-limb
athletes. To appreciate just how artificial Mr. Pistorius' swing time is,
consider that the average limb repositioning time of six former 100-meter world
record holders (Ben Johnson, Carl Lewis, Donovan Bailey, Maurice Greene,
Tim Montgomery, and Justin Gatlin) is 0.34 seconds. Mr. Pistorius' limb
repositioning times are 15.7% more brief than six of the fastest male sprinters
in recorded human history.
Reduced limb repositioning times allow Mr. Pistorius to spend less time in
the air between steps. Shorter aerial periods, in turn, substantially
reduce how hard Mr. Pistorius must hit the ground during each stance period to
lift and move his body forward into the next step. Hence, the net effect of
lightweight prosthetic limbs that artificially reduce the swing and aerial
phases of the stride is to substantially reduce how hard Mr. Pistorius
must hit the ground to run at the same speeds as his intact-limb competitors.
In this sense, the level of sprinting athleticism required for Mr.
Pistorius to achieve world class speeds is dramatically reduced compared to his
intact limb competitors. Mr. Pistorius attains world-class sprinting speeds
with the ground forces and foot-ground contact times of a slow and
relatively uncompetitive runner. Mr. Pistorius' intact-limb competitors, with
natural limb weights and swing times, lack this option, and therefore must
achieve their speeds via exclusively biological means. Mr. Pistorius, in
contrast, achieves these speeds through the use of technology.
Indeed, the gait anomalies of Mr. Pistorius are so large that they can be
observed with a moderately experienced eye. Mr. Pistorius, like slow
intact-limb runners, spends the majority of his race time on the ground while his
competitors, in contrast, spend the majority of their race time in the
air."
Ken Jakalski
Lisle High School
Lisle, IL USA

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

GROUP FOOTER MESSAGE
Modify/cancel your subscription at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups

Sign all letters with full name & city of residence if you
wish them to be published!

No comments:

Post a Comment

Finish Reading ? Make Your Comment Now..!