Messages In This Digest (5 Messages)
- 1a.
- Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy From: Ralph Giarnella
- 1b.
- Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy From: Charles Lockhart
- 1c.
- Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy From: Anthony Sharah
- 1d.
- Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy From: Micah Walker
- 2.
- Growth-Promoting Hormones Don't Stimulate Strength From: Rob Olivar
Messages
- 1a.
-
Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy
Posted by: "Ralph Giarnella" ragiarn@yahoo.com ragiarn
Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:39 am (PDT)
It all depends on how one defines strength. The term strength is an ambiguous term at best. Perhaps a better term instead of strength would be power. Power defined as force x distance/time. Power lifters and olympic lifters are trying to gain the maximum short term power. Max force x short distance/minimum time. Endurance athletes are trying to develop sustained long term power (less force x greater distance/longer time).
Maximum power requires firing a maximum number fibers simultaneously (synchronous) Endurance power requires firing groups small of fibers asynchronously. As one group of fibers fatigues another group takes over while the first recovers.
In my opinion, the type of work done by body builders is somewhere between that of power lifters and that of endurance athletes.
Power athletes are interested in developing maximally type II fibers, endurance athletes are trying to develop maximally type I fibers and I suspect that body builds are trying to develop both groups.
Ralph Giarnella MD
Southington Ct. USA
_____________________ _________ __
From: "efreem3407@aol.com " <efreem3407@aol.com >
To: Supertraining@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy
Correct me if I am wrong but I think lean muscle gains correspond to strength increases. Any bodybuilder that gains lean muscle should have strength increases? Then again, this could be suspect, because I've seen bodybuilders using steroids that do only high rep and low weight workouts yet have massive amounts of muscle. I've seen bodybuilders do hundreds of reps on machines with say 100 lbs. yet still be huge and massive.
I train as a powerlifter. I'm not training to gain a lot of bulk. I am mostly training for strength without massive amounts of body weight and bulk increases.
Edwin Freeman, Jr.
-----Original Message-----
From: deadliftdiva <deadliftdiva@comcast.net >
To: Supertraining <Supertraining@yahoogroups. >com
Sent: Thu, Jun 14, 2012 9:31 am
Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy
I'm going to jump in here with one point that I think has bearing on the whole
question: When we measure lean mass, we are not precise. We cannot be. What we
get is some guess based on measurements which varies and can be misleading - and
I recall Mel's comment long ago that the only truly accurate measure was
"autopsy". Few would desire to have their lean mass evaluated this way during a
growth phase in training, so that's clearly out :) .
With the known variance in measuring methods (and here I recall James Krieger's
good article on measuring that he thoughtfully shared some time ago with this
group), my thinking is that there is a considerable margin of guessing that
makes it possible to overestimate how much lean mass has been gained by an
individual over time. I myself over the years have experienced wildly ranging
measurements by folks who were said to be expert in such things - considering
that the measurement of one's bodyfat subcutaneously or measurements to estimate
a guess at overall bodyfat including a visceral estimate would have bearing on a
presumed gain in lean mass by way of deducting the presumed bodyfat on board...
I also once handed Mel a copy of a book that suggested you could 'squat for 6
weeks and gain 20 pounds of lean hard muscle' and the response was that it was
entertaining but unlikely to be accurate... Thankfully sq never had that effect
on me personally or I'd have required more new wardrobes than I have been
through personally over the years here as a competing powerlifter!
So if we consider that measuring the bodyfat an individual has on board is still
somewhat less effective than we would like, how then can we be sure of lean
gains that would be based on our best guess of the fat to lean ratio of a
person? Would not a "lean muscle gain" not be entirely muscle also, but the
bones themselves responding to the increased loads as well?
Interesting topic, back to reading. :)
The Phantom
aka Linda Schaefer, CMT/RMT, competing powerlifter
Denver, Colorado, USA
----- Original Message -----
From: "kendaiganoneill" <kayoneill@earthlink.net >
To: Supertraining@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 5:54:05 PM
Subject: [Supertraining] Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy
Krista's reports of 25-44 lbs of muscle gain within a year for life long
ectomorphs.
I will dissent, however, on the notion that 20-30 lbs of muscle gain in as
little as three months are hype. Back from the 1930s into the early 60s many a
trainee reported 20 or more pounds increase in manly muscle over a three month
period by means of specializing in 5 sets of 20 reps of breathing squats, some
adding the Hise shrug. Thrice weekly, consuming nutrient dense whole foods and
the sole protein supplement of that bygone era: milk.
Breathing squats are especially demanding, certainly no fun save for Masochists.
With each set, one breath between reps 1-5, then 2 deep breaths for reps 6-10,
three deep breaths for reps 11-15, and - you guessed it - four deep breaths
between reps 16-20. The immediately onto a picnic bench for sets of 20 reps,
very light weight dumbbell flyes to expand the rib cage for a big chest.
These days I'll defer to the exciting new work coming out of McMaster University
comparing 1 set of 8-10 1 RM to failure vs 3 sets of 8-10 to failure 80% 1 RM vs
3 sets of 30 reps to failure with 30% 1 RM. Adding volume at 80% and 30%
produced essentially equal hypertrophy, both significantly greater than 1 set to
failure (a failed idea).
In my personal experience and that of training others, hitting significant
annual hypertrophy is far more easily facilitated when rep schemes, cadence or
tempo, stage sets, drop sets, using 30-80% 1 RM are all intelligently and
strategically applied to one end: avoiding plateaus, instead sustainable
anabolism.
--- In Supertraining@yahoogroups. , Krista Scott-Dixon <kristascottdixon@com ...>
wrote:
>
> On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 4:13 PM, Anthony Pitruzzello
> <tonypit45@...> wrote:
> > Hello Everyone,
> >
> > I recently posted a question about rate of hypertrophy – basically, what are
> > the optimal realistic results a person can expect, vs. the endless claims in
> > the muscle mags, e.g., "Gain 20-30 pounds of lean muscle mass in six
> > weeks!!!" I compared the responses with some other data, and I thought I
> > would share it with the group.
> >
>
> I work with John Berardi at Precision Nutrition, which runs a
> muscle-gaining Scrawny to Brawny program. It's a one-year program that
> focuses on step-by-step habit acquisition and entrainment, like our
> other fat-loss program Lean Eating. We run a contest that awards money
> to top finishers -- people who dramatically transform their bodies.
>
> Looking at our recent 12-month cohorts, our top finalists put on
> between 25-44 lbs in a year. These are ectomorphs who are "lifetime
> scrawnies", so they gain mass relatively slowly -- some made notable
> transformations even with relatively less muscle gain, because small
> amounts of mass make a big difference on a shorter/skinnier frame.
> This is with a highly structured eating and training program, a coach,
> and daily check-ins (lessons and habits). All material is
> science/research-based as you might expect from JB and PN.
>
> Interestingly, our 6-month program was not as dissimilar as you would
> expect -- it doesn't seem to be a linear scale.
>
> Here are finalists from our early, 6-month program:
> http://www.precisionnutrition. com/s2b-winners- 2010
>
> Here are finalists from our 12-month program that begin in May 2011.
> http://www.scrawnytobrawny.com/ may-2011- finalists
>
> Krista
> Toronto, ON
>
> --------------------
> Krista Scott-Dixon, PhD
> Lean Eating Program Director
> PrecisionNutrition.com
> krista@...
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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- 1b.
-
Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy
Posted by: "Charles Lockhart" scout3801@gmail.com scout3801
Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:39 am (PDT)
Edwin Freeman wrote:
> Then again, this could be suspect, because I've seen bodybuilders using steroids that do only high rep and low
> weight workouts yet have massive amounts of muscle. I've seen bodybuilders do hundreds of reps on machines
> with say 100 lbs. yet still be huge and massive.
Sorry, probably going to get this wrong, but wouldn't the size most
likely be due to an abundance of mitochondrial mass? As opposed to
what would be considered muscle fiber? Mitochondria are part of the
cell, so they buff the cell up. Is the cell part of the chain that
makes the muscle fiber? I probably need to read more.
Ralph Giarnella wrote:
> And lastly these measurements do not account for the most abundant element in the body namely water.
> The assumption is always that muscle accounts for any change in fat free mass without accounting for shifts
> in fluid mass.
Regarding weight gain from increased exercise levels, I recall reading
in a book titled "Nutrient Timing" that the increased demand on the
cardiovascular system resulted in an increase in water retention, the
body's goal being to increase blood volume to meet increased O2
demand. IIRC, this could be a significant volume, resulting in a
fairly large weight gain (large as in 4-8 pounds).
-Charles Lockhart
Hilo, HI
- 1c.
-
Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy
Posted by: "Anthony Sharah" deep_salvage@yahoo.com.au deep_salvage
Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:39 am (PDT)
I would like to jump in here and give my differing opinion on rate of hypertrophy. I think there is no standard rate. I think it is highly variable and I think it has a lot more to do with a person's genes than the loading pattern they use. I think if you work hard enough, you simply provide a stimulus. How that stimulus manifests itself, is determined by what is encoded in your genes.
Regards
Anthony Sharah
Sydney Australia
_____________________ _________ __
From: "efreem3407@aol.com " <efreem3407@aol.com >
To: Supertraining@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Friday, 15 June 2012 2:49 AM
Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy
Correct me if I am wrong but I think lean muscle gains correspond to strength increases. Any bodybuilder that gains lean muscle should have strength increases? Then again, this could be suspect, because I've seen bodybuilders using steroids that do only high rep and low weight workouts yet have massive amounts of muscle. I've seen bodybuilders do hundreds of reps on machines with say 100 lbs. yet still be huge and massive.
I train as a powerlifter. I'm not training to gain a lot of bulk. I am mostly training for strength without massive amounts of body weight and bulk increases.
Edwin Freeman, Jr.
-----Original Message-----
From: deadliftdiva <deadliftdiva@comcast.net >
To: Supertraining <Supertraining@yahoogroups. >com
Sent: Thu, Jun 14, 2012 9:31 am
Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy
I'm going to jump in here with one point that I think has bearing on the whole
question: When we measure lean mass, we are not precise. We cannot be. What we
get is some guess based on measurements which varies and can be misleading - and
I recall Mel's comment long ago that the only truly accurate measure was
"autopsy". Few would desire to have their lean mass evaluated this way during a
growth phase in training, so that's clearly out :) .
With the known variance in measuring methods (and here I recall James Krieger's
good article on measuring that he thoughtfully shared some time ago with this
group), my thinking is that there is a considerable margin of guessing that
makes it possible to overestimate how much lean mass has been gained by an
individual over time. I myself over the years have experienced wildly ranging
measurements by folks who were said to be expert in such things - considering
that the measurement of one's bodyfat subcutaneously or measurements to estimate
a guess at overall bodyfat including a visceral estimate would have bearing on a
presumed gain in lean mass by way of deducting the presumed bodyfat on board...
I also once handed Mel a copy of a book that suggested you could 'squat for 6
weeks and gain 20 pounds of lean hard muscle' and the response was that it was
entertaining but unlikely to be accurate... Thankfully sq never had that effect
on me personally or I'd have required more new wardrobes than I have been
through personally over the years here as a competing powerlifter!
So if we consider that measuring the bodyfat an individual has on board is still
somewhat less effective than we would like, how then can we be sure of lean
gains that would be based on our best guess of the fat to lean ratio of a
person? Would not a "lean muscle gain" not be entirely muscle also, but the
bones themselves responding to the increased loads as well?
Interesting topic, back to reading. :)
The Phantom
aka Linda Schaefer, CMT/RMT, competing powerlifter
Denver, Colorado, USA
----- Original Message -----
From: "kendaiganoneill" <kayoneill@earthlink.net >
To: Supertraining@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 5:54:05 PM
Subject: [Supertraining] Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy
Krista's reports of 25-44 lbs of muscle gain within a year for life long
ectomorphs.
I will dissent, however, on the notion that 20-30 lbs of muscle gain in as
little as three months are hype. Back from the 1930s into the early 60s many a
trainee reported 20 or more pounds increase in manly muscle over a three month
period by means of specializing in 5 sets of 20 reps of breathing squats, some
adding the Hise shrug. Thrice weekly, consuming nutrient dense whole foods and
the sole protein supplement of that bygone era: milk.
Breathing squats are especially demanding, certainly no fun save for Masochists.
With each set, one breath between reps 1-5, then 2 deep breaths for reps 6-10,
three deep breaths for reps 11-15, and - you guessed it - four deep breaths
between reps 16-20. The immediately onto a picnic bench for sets of 20 reps,
very light weight dumbbell flyes to expand the rib cage for a big chest.
These days I'll defer to the exciting new work coming out of McMaster University
comparing 1 set of 8-10 1 RM to failure vs 3 sets of 8-10 to failure 80% 1 RM vs
3 sets of 30 reps to failure with 30% 1 RM. Adding volume at 80% and 30%
produced essentially equal hypertrophy, both significantly greater than 1 set to
failure (a failed idea).
In my personal experience and that of training others, hitting significant
annual hypertrophy is far more easily facilitated when rep schemes, cadence or
tempo, stage sets, drop sets, using 30-80% 1 RM are all intelligently and
strategically applied to one end: avoiding plateaus, instead sustainable
anabolism.
--- In Supertraining@yahoogroups. , Krista Scott-Dixon <kristascottdixon@com ...>
wrote:
>
> On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 4:13 PM, Anthony Pitruzzello
> <tonypit45@...> wrote:
> > Hello Everyone,
> >
> > I recently posted a question about rate of hypertrophy – basically, what are
> > the optimal realistic results a person can expect, vs. the endless claims in
> > the muscle mags, e.g., "Gain 20-30 pounds of lean muscle mass in six
> > weeks!!!" I compared the responses with some other data, and I thought I
> > would share it with the group.
> >
>
> I work with John Berardi at Precision Nutrition, which runs a
> muscle-gaining Scrawny to Brawny program. It's a one-year program that
> focuses on step-by-step habit acquisition and entrainment, like our
> other fat-loss program Lean Eating. We run a contest that awards money
> to top finishers -- people who dramatically transform their bodies.
>
> Looking at our recent 12-month cohorts, our top finalists put on
> between 25-44 lbs in a year. These are ectomorphs who are "lifetime
> scrawnies", so they gain mass relatively slowly -- some made notable
> transformations even with relatively less muscle gain, because small
> amounts of mass make a big difference on a shorter/skinnier frame.
> This is with a highly structured eating and training program, a coach,
> and daily check-ins (lessons and habits). All material is
> science/research-based as you might expect from JB and PN.
>
> Interestingly, our 6-month program was not as dissimilar as you would
> expect -- it doesn't seem to be a linear scale.
>
> Here are finalists from our early, 6-month program:
> http://www.precisionnutrition. com/s2b-winners- 2010
>
> Here are finalists from our 12-month program that begin in May 2011.
> http://www.scrawnytobrawny.com/ may-2011- finalists
>
> Krista
> Toronto, ON
>
> --------------------
> Krista Scott-Dixon, PhD
> Lean Eating Program Director
> PrecisionNutrition.com
> krista@...
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--------------------- --------- ------
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http://groups.yahoo.com/ mygroups
Sign all letters with full name & city of residence if you
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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- 1d.
-
Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy
Posted by: "Micah Walker" xmicah_jamesx@yahoo.com xmicah_jamesx
Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:40 am (PDT)
Technically yes, force capacity increases with physiological cross-sectional area of muscle. But in the cases of people gaining mass/size without the subsequent increases in strength it is likely to be the result of sarcoplasmic hypertrophy instead of sarcomere hypertrophy. While I don't doubt that doing large volumes and lower intensities contributes to sarcoplasmic hypertrophy through greater metabolic stress, I don't think it's quite that simple. Size and strength aren't always correlated as there are also a host of other factors that contribute such as muscle fibre type/composition, neuromuscular and endocrine changes, maybe even gene expression. The underlying mechanisms are not fully understood.
It's certainly an interesting area and I'm always keen to read the responses and particularly the research links posted in regards to this topic.
Micah Walker.
Melbourne,
Australia.
Positive Force Personal Training
w: positiveforcept.com
e: micah@positiveforcept.com
_____________________ _________ __
From: "efreem3407@aol.com " <efreem3407@aol.com >
To: Supertraining@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Friday, 15 June 2012 2:49 AM
Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy
Correct me if I am wrong but I think lean muscle gains correspond to strength increases. Any bodybuilder that gains lean muscle should have strength increases? Then again, this could be suspect, because I've seen bodybuilders using steroids that do only high rep and low weight workouts yet have massive amounts of muscle. I've seen bodybuilders do hundreds of reps on machines with say 100 lbs. yet still be huge and massive.
I train as a powerlifter. I'm not training to gain a lot of bulk. I am mostly training for strength without massive amounts of body weight and bulk increases.
Edwin Freeman, Jr.
-----Original Message-----
From: deadliftdiva <deadliftdiva@comcast.net >
To: Supertraining <Supertraining@yahoogroups. >com
Sent: Thu, Jun 14, 2012 9:31 am
Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy
I'm going to jump in here with one point that I think has bearing on the whole
question: When we measure lean mass, we are not precise. We cannot be. What we
get is some guess based on measurements which varies and can be misleading - and
I recall Mel's comment long ago that the only truly accurate measure was
"autopsy". Few would desire to have their lean mass evaluated this way during a
growth phase in training, so that's clearly out :) .
With the known variance in measuring methods (and here I recall James Krieger's
good article on measuring that he thoughtfully shared some time ago with this
group), my thinking is that there is a considerable margin of guessing that
makes it possible to overestimate how much lean mass has been gained by an
individual over time. I myself over the years have experienced wildly ranging
measurements by folks who were said to be expert in such things - considering
that the measurement of one's bodyfat subcutaneously or measurements to estimate
a guess at overall bodyfat including a visceral estimate would have bearing on a
presumed gain in lean mass by way of deducting the presumed bodyfat on board...
I also once handed Mel a copy of a book that suggested you could 'squat for 6
weeks and gain 20 pounds of lean hard muscle' and the response was that it was
entertaining but unlikely to be accurate... Thankfully sq never had that effect
on me personally or I'd have required more new wardrobes than I have been
through personally over the years here as a competing powerlifter!
So if we consider that measuring the bodyfat an individual has on board is still
somewhat less effective than we would like, how then can we be sure of lean
gains that would be based on our best guess of the fat to lean ratio of a
person? Would not a "lean muscle gain" not be entirely muscle also, but the
bones themselves responding to the increased loads as well?
Interesting topic, back to reading. :)
The Phantom
aka Linda Schaefer, CMT/RMT, competing powerlifter
Denver, Colorado, USA
----- Original Message -----
From: "kendaiganoneill" <kayoneill@earthlink.net >
To: Supertraining@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 5:54:05 PM
Subject: [Supertraining] Re: More About Rate of Hypertrophy
Krista's reports of 25-44 lbs of muscle gain within a year for life long
ectomorphs.
I will dissent, however, on the notion that 20-30 lbs of muscle gain in as
little as three months are hype. Back from the 1930s into the early 60s many a
trainee reported 20 or more pounds increase in manly muscle over a three month
period by means of specializing in 5 sets of 20 reps of breathing squats, some
adding the Hise shrug. Thrice weekly, consuming nutrient dense whole foods and
the sole protein supplement of that bygone era: milk.
Breathing squats are especially demanding, certainly no fun save for Masochists.
With each set, one breath between reps 1-5, then 2 deep breaths for reps 6-10,
three deep breaths for reps 11-15, and - you guessed it - four deep breaths
between reps 16-20. The immediately onto a picnic bench for sets of 20 reps,
very light weight dumbbell flyes to expand the rib cage for a big chest.
These days I'll defer to the exciting new work coming out of McMaster University
comparing 1 set of 8-10 1 RM to failure vs 3 sets of 8-10 to failure 80% 1 RM vs
3 sets of 30 reps to failure with 30% 1 RM. Adding volume at 80% and 30%
produced essentially equal hypertrophy, both significantly greater than 1 set to
failure (a failed idea).
In my personal experience and that of training others, hitting significant
annual hypertrophy is far more easily facilitated when rep schemes, cadence or
tempo, stage sets, drop sets, using 30-80% 1 RM are all intelligently and
strategically applied to one end: avoiding plateaus, instead sustainable
anabolism.
--- In Supertraining@yahoogroups. , Krista Scott-Dixon <kristascottdixon@com ...>
wrote:
>
> On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 4:13 PM, Anthony Pitruzzello
> <tonypit45@...> wrote:
> > Hello Everyone,
> >
> > I recently posted a question about rate of hypertrophy – basically, what are
> > the optimal realistic results a person can expect, vs. the endless claims in
> > the muscle mags, e.g., "Gain 20-30 pounds of lean muscle mass in six
> > weeks!!!" I compared the responses with some other data, and I thought I
> > would share it with the group.
> >
>
> I work with John Berardi at Precision Nutrition, which runs a
> muscle-gaining Scrawny to Brawny program. It's a one-year program that
> focuses on step-by-step habit acquisition and entrainment, like our
> other fat-loss program Lean Eating. We run a contest that awards money
> to top finishers -- people who dramatically transform their bodies.
>
> Looking at our recent 12-month cohorts, our top finalists put on
> between 25-44 lbs in a year. These are ectomorphs who are "lifetime
> scrawnies", so they gain mass relatively slowly -- some made notable
> transformations even with relatively less muscle gain, because small
> amounts of mass make a big difference on a shorter/skinnier frame.
> This is with a highly structured eating and training program, a coach,
> and daily check-ins (lessons and habits). All material is
> science/research-based as you might expect from JB and PN.
>
> Interestingly, our 6-month program was not as dissimilar as you would
> expect -- it doesn't seem to be a linear scale.
>
> Here are finalists from our early, 6-month program:
> http://www.precisionnutrition. com/s2b-winners- 2010
>
> Here are finalists from our 12-month program that begin in May 2011.
> http://www.scrawnytobrawny.com/ may-2011- finalists
>
> Krista
> Toronto, ON
>
> --------------------
> Krista Scott-Dixon, PhD
> Lean Eating Program Director
> PrecisionNutrition.com
> krista@...
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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http://groups.yahoo.com/ mygroups
Sign all letters with full name & city of residence if you
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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- 2.
-
Growth-Promoting Hormones Don't Stimulate Strength
Posted by: "Rob Olivar" robolivar2@yahoo.com robolivar2
Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:40 am (PDT)
Hello Every1,
Im sure everyone has read this study, if not its a must read. Bodybuilding Myth Debunked: Growth-Promoting Hormones Don't Stimulate Strength
http://www.sciencedaily.com/ releases/ 2012/06/12061413 0946.htm
Would love to get some opinions on this.
Best,
Rob Olivar
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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