FAST INFO MAGAZINE: [Supertraining] Digest Number 4656

Friday, 12 April 2013

[Supertraining] Digest Number 4656

5 New Messages

Digest #4656
1.1
Force-velocity testing by "Martin Huizing" martinhuizing1
1.2
Re: Force-velocity testing by "Giovanni Ciriani" gciriani
2a
Core Training by "Mark Helme" mark521668
2b
Re: Core Training by "Phil Caraher" hefenweis
2c
Re: Core Training by "Brock Leggins" bleggins81

Messages

Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:15 pm (PDT) . Posted by:

"Martin Huizing" martinhuizing1

Hi Supertraining fans,

Much to my surprise I saw that my post 1 month ago was the last post to this forum.
I started visiting this forum some 10 years ago, when Mel was - of course - the leading poster here.

I hope to stimulate discussion by bringing up some comments, based especially on Mel's book Supertraining.
I will refer to the page in the book (6th edition) if possible.

-----------------------------

FORCE-VELOCITY 
I will start with the use of the force-velocity curve in sports (also based on the 1RM discussion early on);
In most text books and educational centers we learn about the Hyperbolic force-velocity curve, discovered by Hill (page 19).

On page 147, the limitations of the force-velocity curve are discussed. Specifically, Hill's force-velocity curve has been found in research with isolated muscles. The consequences of this isolated force on - for example - the ground reaction force during a squat depends on (a.o.) the length of the muscle, the influence of the muscle on the joints, coordination with other muscles. When studying the F-v curve in throws or jumps, the relation is shaped differently (page 148) or seems linear (see http://orbi.ulg.ac.be/bitstream/2268/103152/1/Jidovtseff%201RM%20prediction.pdf.). 

The linear force-velocity curve is used in software of some training devices, in order to predict the 1RM without having to max out during the exercise.
As training effects are specific in technique, coordination, velocity, etc. it's good to know what quality exactly you want to improve, and what training program you should do.

Therefore, it's not only the 1RM that is of interest, yet the whole force-velocity curve at all velocities, especially those velocities produced during sports.

I look forward to your comments and/or experiences and research. Also I am interested to know what products are used and how it is used to get the results.

Cheers,

drs. Martin Huizing
Exercise Physiologist
The Netherlands

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:08 am (PDT) . Posted by:

"Giovanni Ciriani" gciriani

I remember we had a discussion on the paper (of which you provide the link)
already.

I can repeat what I said back then: the curve offered by the paper is
linear because it doesn't refer to instantaneous speed bu to average speed.
Hill's curve refers to instantaneous speed. By the way the link works only
if one deletes the last period.
Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA

On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 7:02 AM, Martin Huizing <martinhuizing1@yahoo.com>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hi Supertraining fans,
>
> Much to my surprise I saw that my post 1 month ago was the last post to
> this forum.
> I started visiting this forum some 10 years ago, when Mel was - of course
> - the leading poster here.
>
> I hope to stimulate discussion by bringing up some comments,
> based especially on Mel's book Supertraining.
> I will refer to the page in the book (6th edition) if possible.
>
> -----------------------------
>
> FORCE-VELOCITY
> I will start with the use of the force-velocity curve in sports (also
> based on the 1RM discussion early on);
> In most text books and educational centers we learn about the Hyperbolic
> force-velocity curve, discovered by Hill (page 19).
>
> On page 147, the limitations of the force-velocity curve are
> discussed. Specifically, Hill's force-velocity curve has been found in
> research with isolated muscles. The consequences of this isolated force on
> - for example - the ground reaction force during a squat depends on (a.o.)
> the length of the muscle, the influence of the muscle on the joints,
> coordination with other muscles. When studying the F-v curve in throws or
> jumps, the relation is shaped differently (page 148) or seems linear (see
> http://orbi.ulg.ac.be/bitstream/2268/103152/1/Jidovtseff%201RM%20prediction.pdf.
> ).
>
> The linear force-velocity curve is used in software of some training
> devices, in order to predict the 1RM without having to max out during the
> exercise.
> As training effects are specific in technique, coordination, velocity,
> etc. it's good to know what quality exactly you want to improve, and what
> training program you should do.
>
> Therefore, it's not only the 1RM that is of interest, yet the whole
> force-velocity curve at all velocities, especially those velocities
> produced during sports.
>
> I look forward to your comments and/or experiences and research. Also I am
> interested to know what products are used and how it is used to get the
> results.
>
> Cheers,
>
> drs. Martin Huizing
> Exercise Physiologist
> The Netherlands
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:15 pm (PDT) . Posted by:

"Mark Helme" mark521668

Dear Supertrainers

I was hoping I might get a few different opinions on the issue of core
training. For many years we accepted that we should train the core, to
improve both posture and spinal control during dynamic movements to resist
displacing forces. Most of us have at some point made reference to McGill's
work. However, my debate is how we achieve this, as most core training
protocols tend to veer into isometric endurance, either by increasing time
in a plank or the sets and reps of a Swiss ball exercise. On the other hand,
what I want to achieve is the athletes ability to resist greater and greater
displacing forces (I also acknowledge that core endurance is valuable and
still has a role to play). So what are peoples thoughts on training core
strength as a different quality to core endurance?

Mark Helme

Wakefield, UK

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:09 am (PDT) . Posted by:

"Phil Caraher" hefenweis

Standing/Weight bearing Dynamic exercises are a good place to start. They
are functional and applicable to sports. Isometric non-weight bearing
exercises (planks) have little value for athletes. May have some value for
rehab. In additional to being a PT I was also a 19+meter shot putter in
college. I never came across a world class thrower's training log that
include isometric/ non-WB core exercises and throwers need to train their
core as much as anyone.

Phil Caraher, DPT, MS, CSCS, USAW, PES, CES

Chapel Hill, NC

From: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Supertraining@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Mark Helme
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 4:09 AM
To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Supertraining] Core Training

Dear Supertrainers

I was hoping I might get a few different opinions on the issue of core
training. For many years we accepted that we should train the core, to
improve both posture and spinal control during dynamic movements to resist
displacing forces. Most of us have at some point made reference to McGill's
work. However, my debate is how we achieve this, as most core training
protocols tend to veer into isometric endurance, either by increasing time
in a plank or the sets and reps of a Swiss ball exercise. On the other hand,
what I want to achieve is the athletes ability to resist greater and greater
displacing forces (I also acknowledge that core endurance is valuable and
still has a role to play). So what are peoples thoughts on training core
strength as a different quality to core endurance?

Mark Helme

Wakefield, UK

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:09 am (PDT) . Posted by:

"Brock Leggins" bleggins81

I concur that there is value in both. Increased strength could easily be achieved by modifying load or execution of many of the isometric exercises used.
Brock LegginsNorwalk, IA

To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
From: mark-helme@sky.com
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 09:08:49 +0100
Subject: [Supertraining] Core Training

Dear Supertrainers

I was hoping I might get a few different opinions on the issue of core

training. For many years we accepted that we should train the core, to

improve both posture and spinal control during dynamic movements to resist

displacing forces. Most of us have at some point made reference to McGill's

work. However, my debate is how we achieve this, as most core training

protocols tend to veer into isometric endurance, either by increasing time

in a plank or the sets and reps of a Swiss ball exercise. On the other hand,

what I want to achieve is the athletes ability to resist greater and greater

displacing forces (I also acknowledge that core endurance is valuable and

still has a role to play). So what are peoples thoughts on training core

strength as a different quality to core endurance?

Mark Helme

Wakefield, UK

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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