Saturday 10 November 2012

[Supertraining] Digest Number 4627

5 New Messages

Digest #4627
2a
Re: Slow twitch hypertrophy. by "JRTELLE@AOL.COM"
2b
Re: Slow twitch hypertrophy. by "Ralph Giarnella" ragiarn
2c
Re: Slow twitch hypertrophy. by "Giovanni Ciriani" gciriani
2d
Slow twitch hypertrophy. by "John Casler" bioforce_inc

Messages

Fri Nov 9, 2012 10:36 pm (PST) . Posted by:

"JRTELLE@AOL.COM"

Thanks Brock,

Here's why.

You say, "I guess my question in all of this is - what is the purpose of attempting to hypertrophy the slow-twitch fibers anyway? They have far less capacity for growth, so it is unlikely to have much impact on physique development,

--telle. Have not re researched this yet but do remember there is some % of hypertrophy significant enough for hypertrophy athlete';s attention. But, in much likelihood, the typical hypertrophy routine will hypertrophy these to 80%?? of their potential -- maybe meaning that the additional efforts required will significantly negatively deplete neural recovery energies? Slow twitch tempo's of 4080?, for me, are very taxing.

Brock. " and if it is to possibly increase their force capacity, that's not really what they're there for anyway."

telle. yes and no sort of. It is "POSSIBLE" they increase force capacities and they may contribute significantly to force expressions -- perhaps as the muscle fatigues during sprinting that is -- rate of tension generating capacities are fast enough to contribute to high power events" ??

And their purpose is pretty much universal in that they are the first to atrophy w/ disuse and thus are a function of "any" necessary activity.

Brock, "I would be more inclined to say, if they hypertrophy, great, but if not, you probably shouldn't leave much sleep over it.

telle -- I would be greatly inclined to agree!

Jerry Telle
Lakewood CO USA

-----Original Message-----
From: Brock Leggins <brockleggins@hotmail.com>
To: supertraining <supertraining@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:15 am
Subject: RE: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.

I guess my question in all of this is - what is the purpose of attempting to hypertrophy the slow-twitch fibers anyway? They have far less capacity for growth, so it is unlikely to have much impact on physique development, and if it is to possibly increase their force capacity, that's not really what they're there for anyway. I would be more inclined to say, if they hypertrophy, great, but if not, you probably shouldn't leave much sleep over it.

To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
From: JRTELLE@AOL.COM
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 01:57:44 -0500
Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.

Nice reply Ralph,

Points of my confusion: you say, "All voluntary muscles fibers fatigue even Type I." I probably agree with the following caveats. I have tried to totally, w/ the same eccentric concentric resistance attempting to max resistance over both ROM's by varying body positions, fatigue all fibers at once -- cant be done -- there's always some resistance that can be moved or resisted?! When it seemed that slow twitch had finally had it -- some higher threshold force would manifest?! And so on -- with immense amounts (for me anyway) of pain accruing.

I seem to recall Mel saying pretty much what you mentioned about endurance athletes cycling fibers to maintain tension. I believe Mel also implied/said that higher threshold fibers "orchestrate", also much like various sections of an orchestra. Some where in my past I? had research that indicated this also -- especially the very lowest threshold at 90+ secs. And could never totally concentrically below 2-5% max!? My brother accidently lost my last 2 copies of the 1993? "Beyond 2001" but should have it on a computer file somewhere.

Regardless, to what extent slow twitch can be hypertrophied beyond a certain % has probably not been conclusively established, though for an hypertrophy athlete it is important.

You say "During high intensity work such as weight lifting maximum force is achieved through synchronous recruitment of as many muscle fibers as possible". I'm sure you meant this to be a somewhat general statement in that "pure" synchrony is only approached as total muscle reaches high percents of fatigue, as much damage often results as one approaches "involuntary", life threatening maximums.

And finally you say -- "During all out max rep ATP and CP are the primary source of energy. Depending on training state there is less than 20 seconds worth of ATP and CP available stored for instant energy, after that the ATP has to be replenished during recovery". -- Again, we need to be aware that "during all out max rep"s -- during initial fresh voluntary exertions estimates range from 65- 85% involuntary max or 85% of involuntary fibers at varying degrees of summation/rate coding and synchronicity (or some thing in between) are exerted.

I don't remember exactly to what extent highest threshold IIb'-a's are summated and/or synchronized but wrote recently --- MISPLACING THE SOURCE OF COURSE - but here it is

SYNCHRONIZATION TENSION/FORCE TOTAL MUSCLE. Total muscle tension force is partly a function of basically howmany fibers are recruited at NEARLY the same moment. This never happens all atonce at first because the tension force would actually tear the muscle tendonsfrom their moorings (unless the muscle is fatigued) --- QUOTE -- (I'm looking for the source now -- midnite).

"If you perform asub-maximal task long enough to induce fatigue, the loss of force will becompensated by increased recruitment synchronization and increased rate coding (AND SUMMATION) of the recruited fibers. If a fiber is creating a specific required tension andis at a frequency which induces it to create 75% of it's maximum for example,as it fatigues, the SPS frequency will increase to keep it at that tensionlevel. Eventually, rate coding (AND SYNCHRONIZATION) will be maximized and the fiber (ENTIRE MUSCLE) will not be ableto continue to display that tension level".

I would add that if you perform max voluntary TASK that only 1 will be able to be performed (unless you can suddenly tap into that involuntary reserve -- which one would think you could since there is no additional weight involved -- that is there are unused (maybe not enough for requisite tensions) -- then again a 100% max effort taking about 2.5 seconds concentric depletes an enormous amount of momentary tensions -- much of it neural.

Will have to google slow twitch hypertrophy.

Jerry Telle

Lakewood CO USA

-----Original Message-----

From: Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@yahoo.com>

To: Supertraining <Supertraining@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Tue, Nov 6, 2012 11:28 am

Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.

The only muscle fibers that never fatigue are the heart muscles fibers. All voluntary muscles fibers fatigue even Type I.

The difference is that Type I fibers take longer to reach their limit. Mitochondrial density and capillary density are determining factors in how long it takes for voluntary muscle fibers to fatigue.

Type II fibers have significantly less mitochondria than Type I fibers. Specific endurance training will increase both mitochondrial density as well as capillary density in type I fibers.

During high intensity work such as weight lifting maximum force is achieved through synchronous recruitment of as many muscle fibers as possible.

The firing pattern of endurance athletes becomes asynchronous. During continuous contractions, some units are firing while others recover, providing a built in recovery period. The muscle fibers act some what like a circular relay race or a pace line in bicycle racing.. When one group tires another works while the first recovers and when second group tires a third takes over etc and this continues until it is the turn of the first group again.

The rapidity of fatigue also depends on what the primary source of energy is during the activity.

During all out max rep ATP and CP are the primary source of energy. Depending on training state there is less than 20 seconds worth of ATP and CP available stored for instant energy, after that the ATP has to be replenished during recovery.

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct. USA

________________________________

From: Phil Caraher <pcaraher1@nc.rr.com>

To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, November 5, 2012 4:16 PM

Subject: RE: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.

It is my understanding the motor units in postural muscles will share the

burden so that no one unit is always active which would prevent fatigue and

maintain posture.

Phil Caraher, DPT, MS, CSCS, PES, CES

Physical Therapist

Chapel Hill, NC

-----Original Message-----

From: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Supertraining@yahoogroups.com]

On Behalf Of Giovanni Ciriani

Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 2:17 PM

To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.

I do not understand the concept of fatigueing a fiber to train it. Mt

understanding is that fibers adapt (train) because there is microdamage,

which probably can happen even without fatigue to occur. In addition I

thought that 100% type I fibers would be able to produce a certain force ad

infinitum, such as postural fibers. If that was not the case then one would

slump down on a desk after a few minutes because the muscles of the back

were fatigued.

Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA

On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 2:02 AM, <JRTELLE@aol.com> wrote:

> **

>

>

> Greetings all.

>

> I received this message from an obviously experienced trainer.

>

> Jerry:

>

> Iread in the summer issue of MILO that you determined that a Type 1

> slow twitchmuscle fiber required a time under tension of 90 to 240

> seconds to fatigue thatparticular fiber. From that I deduce that since

> a muscle--say a leg or ashoulder one isn't one-hundred percent fast or

> slow twitch, to adequatelyfatigue and build that muscle both types of

> fibers need to be exercised. Ifthis is so, then I can only see a

> couple of possibilities to attack the slowtwitch; lighter weight and

higher reps or super slow reps.

> Withsuper slow in order to reach the 90 second threshold would

> probably necessitatea lower weight as well. Am I barking up the wrong

> tree? If not, what are yoursuggestions for incorporating fatiguing

> both types of fibers in a singleworkout?

>

> Ithank you for your time and effort in responding to this request.

>

> I responded.

>

> Right tree, rightbark -- maybe,

>

> I havephilosophically fought with these slow twitchers forever. At one

> point I wasdoing drop sets starting with a IIb weight, then 2 - IIa

> drop sets, then superslow up - two 120+ seconds. SEEMED to work. This

> I termed "top down" training!Recent research seems to indicate that

> exertion should last 50 - 55 seconds(for type II's???) then cessation!

>

> The type onestheoretically via the "size" principle are worked the

> entire 55seconds also which is a pretty good stimulation -- maybe?

>

> Another that Ithink maybe better is to work the type II's on one day

> and 3 days later theI's. The ones protocol being starting with a 30%

> of 1 RM Slow moes at 4(to8)2(or more)40. that's 4240 or 4 down 2 at

> the isometric bottom getting a superstretch - 4 up - 0 at top

> isometric position. Here is 1

> protocol:

>

> 1. 6240 to failure

> 2. thenimmediately after failure 40X+0 the X+ being an explosive

> positive up and 4down and no stop at bottom. The fascinating thing

> being the explosive strengthleft after total slow moe failure. Should

> be able to get

> 2 maybe 3 xtra reps -very painful.

> 3. 1 drop set ofsame protocol.

> This should getyou to 90+ seconds which may be good enough? I have

> done drops to very lowloads -- so low that failure could not be

> attained - it would seem at these lowloads certain slow (or fast

> fibers) rest then contribute as the others nowrest??

>

> This I termed "bottomup" training.

>

> And finally I havetried Eccentric sets and drops to near total fiber

> failure at very low loads-- a very taxingtraining protocol which

> should be gradually built up to.

>

> I, somewhere, haveresearch on this matter which will try to find and send!

>

> Thanx for thequestion. It always helps me to write out my current

> beliefs as it clarifiessame and most often leads to new ideas.

>

> I should have added. When concentric failure is reached do slow moe

> bottom of movement -- end of eccentric, isometric, start of concentric

partials.

> Fiber tension is always greatest there (think tension-force

> phenomenon), lasts the longest as fatigue accumulates(my research and

> highly respected researchers Komi and Hakkinen from Finland) and is a

> great highest possible tension set extender not wasting valuable

> mental energy on uselessly low, detrimental or non existent fiber tensions

attempting full ROM movements.

> Do partials to complete failure that is less and less movement to zero

> -- but not max intensity (totally psyched out -- competition effort)!

>

> Jerry

>

> Any remarks? -- Negative remarks welcomed!

>

> Jerry Telle

> lakewood CO USA

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>

>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

Modify/cancel your subscription at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups

Sign all letters with full name & city of residence if you wish them to be

published!

Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fri Nov 9, 2012 10:36 pm (PST) . Posted by:

"JRTELLE@AOL.COM"

Greetings Ken,

see all UPPERCASE comments

Ken writes -- I'm very interested in the responses here, especially since many of my
colleagues believe that we must
optimally train all the muscle fibers that are active and contribute to
performance.
Here is the approach:
The only way to train a muscle fiber is to overload that fiber.
A fiber that is not overloaded will not adapt or improve.
In order to overload a fiber you have to fatigue that fiber.
Muscle fibers do not all fatigue at the same time. Different fibers have
different rates of fatigue. Slow twitch fibers fatigue at a much, much slower
rate than Fast A fibers. Fast A fibers fatigue much slower than Fast B
fibers.
The same thing exists in the other fiber types too. In other words, there
is a continuum of contractile properties (a bell curve) in all muscle
fibers – from slower to faster, weaker to stronger, more enduring to less
enduring.
Ken -- Bottom line:
Training (i.e. fatiguing) all your widely different fibers (or as many as
is practical) requires using a wide variety of training loads.
Is this accurate--and practical?

telle -- I would add that I believe that overloading all fibers at as high a momentary tension as is safely possible to %? failure has benefits also -- TUMMT (TIME UNDER MAX MOMENTARY TENSION) as it were! And fatigued to what % of max tension? Down to 40, 20, 0%? concentric and as fast as possible which of course correlates 100% with max momentary tensions.
This means for strength and power athletes? 1. drop sets of 3-4 reps at tempos of 20X+0 or even 10X+0 (with the X+ meaning explosively) reps SETS/REPS NOT TO FAILURE (another really interesting topic) for at least 55? secs(recent research from ?? source) T.nation I believe to be one. And/or,
2. Extended concentric over load eccentric sets to ?%? tension failure.
3. Extended overload eccentric sets hopefully hypertrophying mid- upper threshold type I's also! More research I have somewhere!
Many possibilities here -- with possibly many detrimental even highly dangerous protocols.
AND as Mel used to say, "over to you for comment."
Jerry Telle
Lakewood CO USA

-----Original Message-----
From: CoachJ1 <CoachJ1@aol.com>
To: Supertraining <Supertraining@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:15 am
Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.

I'm very interested in the responses here, especially since many of my
colleagues believe that we must
optimally train all the muscle fibers that are active and contribute to
performance.
Here is the approach:
The only way to train a muscle fiber is to overload that fiber.
A fiber that is not overloaded will not adapt or improve.
In order to overload a fiber you have to fatigue that fiber.
Muscle fibers do not all fatigue at the same time. Different fibers have
different rates of fatigue. Slow twitch fibers fatigue at a much, much slower
rate than Fast A fibers. Fast A fibers fatigue much slower than Fast B
fibers.
The same thing exists in the other fiber types too. In other words, there
is a continuum of contractile properties (a bell curve) in all muscle
fibers – from slower to faster, weaker to stronger, more enduring to less
enduring.
Bottom line:
Training (i.e. fatiguing) all your widely different fibers (or as many as
is practical) requires using a wide variety of training loads.
Is this accurate--and practical?
As Mel used to say, "over to you for comment."
Ken Jakalski
Lisle Senior High School
Lisle, IL USA

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fri Nov 9, 2012 10:37 pm (PST) . Posted by:

"Ralph Giarnella" ragiarn

The following review my be of interest:

The Role of Resistance Exercise Intensity on Muscle Fibre Adaptations
Author: Andrew C. Fry
Source: Sports Medicine, Volume 34, Number 10, 2004 , pp. 663-679(17)

[quote] Although many training variables contribute to the performance, cellular and molecular adaptations to resistance exercise, relative intensity (% 1 repetition maximum [%1RM]) appears to be an important factor. This review summarises and analyses data from numerous resistance exercise training studies that have monitored percentage fibre type, fibre type cross-sectional areas, percentage cross-sectional areas, and myosin heavy chain (MHC) isoform expression. In general, relative intensity appears to account for 18–35% of the variance for the hypertrophy response to resistance exercise. On the other hand, fibre type and MHC transitions were not related to the relative intensity used for training. When competitive lifters were compared, those typically utilising the heaviest loads (90% 1RM), that is weightlifters and powerlifters, exhibited a preferential hypertrophy of type II fibres when compared withbody builders who appear to equally
hypertrophy both type I and type II fibres. These data suggest that maximal hypertrophy occurs with loads from 80–95% 1RM [/quote] 

Ralph Giarnella MD
Southington Ct. USA 

________________________________
From: "CoachJ1@aol.com" <CoachJ1@aol.com>
To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 7, 2012 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.


 

I'm very interested in the responses here, especially since many of my
colleagues believe that we must
optimally train all the muscle fibers that are active and contribute to
performance.
Here is the approach:
The only way to train a muscle fiber is to overload that fiber.
A fiber that is not overloaded will not adapt or improve.
In order to overload a fiber you have to fatigue that fiber.
Muscle fibers do not all fatigue at the same time. Different fibers have
different rates of fatigue. Slow twitch fibers fatigue at a much, much slower
rate than Fast A fibers. Fast A fibers fatigue much slower than Fast B
fibers.
The same thing exists in the other fiber types too. In other words, there
is a continuum of contractile properties (a bell curve) in all muscle
fibers – from slower to faster, weaker to stronger, more enduring to less
enduring.
Bottom line:
Training (i.e. fatiguing) all your widely different fibers (or as many as
is practical) requires using a wide variety of training loads.
Is this accurate--and practical?
As Mel used to say, "over to you for comment."
Ken Jakalski
Lisle Senior High School
Lisle, IL USA

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fri Nov 9, 2012 10:37 pm (PST) . Posted by:

"Giovanni Ciriani" gciriani

Phil,
I agree with most of your points.

One thing that deserves clarification though, is that most people equate
load with weight. One could use lighter weights (let's say 30% of maximum
one can lift), and move them at MVC to produce higher speed and train for
maximum power (product of speed and force).

Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 8:03 PM, Phil Caraher <pcaraher1@nc.rr.com> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Giovanni,
>
> I should have been clearer and elaborated more. My comment was specifically
> in reference to postural muscles needed to maintain posture for example
> sitting at a computer. You describe it as round robin, I describe it as
> switching off. My copy of Enoka is older than yours and has slightly
> different graphs. But the point is still made. I think we are in
> agreement? I haven't read a post that disputes the concept? As far as Type
> 1 fiber's role in sports performance? It is another subject entirely as
> other posts have stated. Although it hasn't been stated in its entirety
> here, the force that a muscle can produce has what Zatsiorski describes as
> central and peripheral components. Central (I think CNS) includes MU
> recruitment, synchronization (as best it can be achieved) and rate coding.
> The peripheral factor being physiological cross section of the muscle.
> Ninety degrees to the grain so to speak.
>
> I read an article title "The Optimal Training Load for the Development of
> Muscular Power" authored by Kawamori and Haff. It states when the MU firing
> frequency exceeds the level that is sufficient to achieve maximum force,
> the
> further increase in firing frequency contributes to an increase in rate of
> force development? This is possibly another factor that contributes to
> force output at least in the time it is produced. I believe this would be
> an argument in support of training with heavy loads vs lighter loads?
>
> Phil Caraher, Chapel Hill, NC
>
>
> From: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Supertraining@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Giovanni Ciriani
> Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2012 10:34 AM
>
> To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
>
> Phil,
> I think what you are referring to is recruitment level which, no matter
> what the level of force developed is, will cause some fibers to be
> recruited close to 100% and others (faster fibers) to be recruited at a
> much lower percentage.
>
> The fibers recruited at much lower level will alternate (in a so-to-speak
> round-robin fashion). However, because of their metabolic characteristics,
> slow-twitch fibers will be able to maintain their effort for a long time.
> You can sort of understand it from the picture at this shortcut
> http://bit.ly/Wv2uaD
> which is taken from
> Enoka R. *Neuromechanics of human movement*. 4. ed. Champaign IL [u.a.]:
>
> Human Kinetics; 2008.
>
> The graph is in two parts, and kind of involved. However, you can get the
> gist that, as recruitment increases the number of muscle fibers involved
> increases, as well as their rate-coding (frequency of the
> neuro-muscular frequency of impulses). The random ripple in the graph
> denotes the fact that, as some muscle fibers are activated others are
> dropped, and therefore the increase is messy.
>
> Interesting is the following example anybody can try (learned in an
> electrical muscle stimulation workshop). You can hear the frequency at
> which muscle fibers fire if you plug both of your ears with your fingers.
> The low volume rumble you hear is the frequency at which the muscle fibers
> of your arm are firing. Because the firing has some noise in it and is
> discrete in nature, you can hear the varying pressure in your ear. Try to
> increase the pressure exercised by the fingers and the frequency goes up.
>
> Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
>
> On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 4:16 PM, Phil Caraher <pcaraher1@nc.rr.com
> <mailto:pcaraher1%40nc.rr.com> > wrote:
>
> > **
>
> >
> >
> > It is my understanding the motor units in postural muscles will share the
> > burden so that no one unit is always active which would prevent fatigue
> and
> > maintain posture.
> >
> > Phil Caraher, DPT, MS, CSCS, PES, CES
> > Physical Therapist
> > Chapel Hill, NC
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com> ]
> > On Behalf Of Giovanni Ciriani
> > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 2:17 PM
> > To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com <mailto:
> Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com>
>
> > Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
> >
> > I do not understand the concept of fatigueing a fiber to train it. Mt
> > understanding is that fibers adapt (train) because there is microdamage,
> > which probably can happen even without fatigue to occur. In addition I
> > thought that 100% type I fibers would be able to produce a certain force
> ad
> > infinitum, such as postural fibers. If that was not the case then one
> would
> > slump down on a desk after a few minutes because the muscles of the back
> > were fatigued.
> >
> > Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
> >
> > On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 2:02 AM, <JRTELLE@aol.com
> <mailto:JRTELLE%40aol.com> > wrote:
> >
> > > **
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Greetings all.
> > >
> > > I received this message from an obviously experienced trainer.
> > >
> > > Jerry:
> > >
> > > Iread in the summer issue of MILO that you determined that a Type 1
> > > slow twitchmuscle fiber required a time under tension of 90 to 240
> > > seconds to fatigue thatparticular fiber. From that I deduce that since
> > > a muscle--say a leg or ashoulder one isn't one-hundred percent fast or
> > > slow twitch, to adequatelyfatigue and build that muscle both types of
> > > fibers need to be exercised. Ifthis is so, then I can only see a
> > > couple of possibilities to attack the slowtwitch; lighter weight and
> > higher reps or super slow reps.
> > > Withsuper slow in order to reach the 90 second threshold would
> > > probably necessitatea lower weight as well. Am I barking up the wrong
> > > tree? If not, what are yoursuggestions for incorporating fatiguing
> > > both types of fibers in a singleworkout?
> > >
> > > Ithank you for your time and effort in responding to this request.
> > >
> > > I responded.
> > >
> > > Right tree, rightbark -- maybe,
> > >
> > > I havephilosophically fought with these slow twitchers forever. At one
> > > point I wasdoing drop sets starting with a IIb weight, then 2 - IIa
> > > drop sets, then superslow up - two 120+ seconds. SEEMED to work. This
> > > I termed "top down" training!Recent research seems to indicate that
> > > exertion should last 50 - 55 seconds(for type II's???) then cessation!
> > >
> > > The type onestheoretically via the "size" principle are worked the
> > > entire 55seconds also which is a pretty good stimulation -- maybe?
> > >
> > > Another that Ithink maybe better is to work the type II's on one day
> > > and 3 days later theI's. The ones protocol being starting with a 30%
> > > of 1 RM Slow moes at 4(to8)2(or more)40. that's 4240 or 4 down 2 at
> > > the isometric bottom getting a superstretch - 4 up - 0 at top
> > > isometric position. Here is 1
> > > protocol:
> > >
> > > 1. 6240 to failure
> > > 2. thenimmediately after failure 40X+0 the X+ being an explosive
> > > positive up and 4down and no stop at bottom. The fascinating thing
> > > being the explosive strengthleft after total slow moe failure. Should
> > > be able to get
> > > 2 maybe 3 xtra reps -very painful.
> > > 3. 1 drop set ofsame protocol.
> > > This should getyou to 90+ seconds which may be good enough? I have
> > > done drops to very lowloads -- so low that failure could not be
> > > attained - it would seem at these lowloads certain slow (or fast
> > > fibers) rest then contribute as the others nowrest??
> > >
> > > This I termed "bottomup" training.
> > >
> > > And finally I havetried Eccentric sets and drops to near total fiber
> > > failure at very low loads-- a very taxingtraining protocol which
> > > should be gradually built up to.
> > >
> > > I, somewhere, haveresearch on this matter which will try to find and
> > send!
> > >
> > > Thanx for thequestion. It always helps me to write out my current
> > > beliefs as it clarifiessame and most often leads to new ideas.
> > >
> > > I should have added. When concentric failure is reached do slow moe
> > > bottom of movement -- end of eccentric, isometric, start of concentric
> > partials.
> > > Fiber tension is always greatest there (think tension-force
> > > phenomenon), lasts the longest as fatigue accumulates(my research and
> > > highly respected researchers Komi and Hakkinen from Finland) and is a
> > > great highest possible tension set extender not wasting valuable
> > > mental energy on uselessly low, detrimental or non existent fiber
> > tensions
> > attempting full ROM movements.
> > > Do partials to complete failure that is less and less movement to zero
> > > -- but not max intensity (totally psyched out -- competition effort)!
> > >
> > > Jerry
> > >
> > > Any remarks? -- Negative remarks welcomed!
> > >
> > > Jerry Telle
> > > lakewood CO USA
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > Modify/cancel your subscription at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
> >
> > Sign all letters with full name & city of residence if you wish them to
> be
> > published!
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fri Nov 9, 2012 10:38 pm (PST) . Posted by:

"John Casler" bioforce_inc



Subject: RE: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.

John Casler writes:

I am a bit confused with the "assumption" that a muscle requires training to
fatigue or exhaustion for a strength or hypertrophic adaptation.

It is my understanding that the two primary stimuli to muscle
conditioning/adaptation for the qualities of Strength and Hypertrophy are
TENSION Levels and amount of WORK performed at those levels. The overload
parameters for these would be the level of Tension, and the Volume of Work
performed at those Tension Levels.

A secondary metabolic stimulus would be fatigue/exhaustion but the
adaptation to that stimulus would be "ENDURANCE" and not strength or
hypertrophy.

So if you want to cause the adaptation of strength and or hypertrophy, you
would employ "HIGH TENSIONS" and ADEQUATE WORK at those tensions to create
OVERLOAD. Attempting to cause fatigue or exhaustion would be more to
stimulating metabolic endurance.

It seems that the "set to failure" idea has somehow been assumed, when in
fact, it doesn't apply (in any way I can see) to building Strength, Speed,
or Hypertrophy. If one also wishes to cause an endurance adaptation, then
go to fatigue or exhaustion.

Regards,

John Casler
TRI-VECTOR 3-D Training Systems
Century City, CA

-||||--------||||-

GROUP FOOTER MESSAGE
Modify/cancel your subscription at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups

Sign all letters with full name & city of residence if you
wish them to be published!

Friday 9 November 2012

[Supertraining] Digest Number 4626

4 New Messages

Digest #4626
1a
Re: Slow twitch hypertrophy. by "CoachJ1@aol.com" coachj12002
1b
Re: Slow twitch hypertrophy. by "Brock Leggins" bleggins81
1c
Re: Slow twitch hypertrophy. by "Phil Caraher" hefenweis
2
Lossing body fat by "sebascoles" sebascoles

Messages

Fri Nov 9, 2012 12:15 am (PST) . Posted by:

"CoachJ1@aol.com" coachj12002


I'm very interested in the responses here, especially since many of my
colleagues believe that we must
optimally train all the muscle fibers that are active and contribute to
performance.
Here is the approach:
The only way to train a muscle fiber is to overload that fiber.
A fiber that is not overloaded will not adapt or improve.
In order to overload a fiber you have to fatigue that fiber.
Muscle fibers do not all fatigue at the same time. Different fibers have
different rates of fatigue. Slow twitch fibers fatigue at a much, much slower
rate than Fast A fibers. Fast A fibers fatigue much slower than Fast B
fibers.
The same thing exists in the other fiber types too. In other words, there
is a continuum of contractile properties (a bell curve) in all muscle
fibers – from slower to faster, weaker to stronger, more enduring to less
enduring.
Bottom line:
Training (i.e. fatiguing) all your widely different fibers (or as many as
is practical) requires using a wide variety of training loads.
Is this accurate--and practical?
As Mel used to say, "over to you for comment."
Ken Jakalski
Lisle Senior High School
Lisle, IL USA

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fri Nov 9, 2012 12:15 am (PST) . Posted by:

"Brock Leggins" bleggins81


I guess my question in all of this is - what is the purpose of attempting to hypertrophy the slow-twitch fibers anyway? They have far less capacity for growth, so it is unlikely to have much impact on physique development, and if it is to possibly increase their force capacity, that's not really what they're there for anyway. I would be more inclined to say, if they hypertrophy, great, but if not, you probably shouldn't leave much sleep over it.

To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
From: JRTELLE@AOL.COM
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 01:57:44 -0500
Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.


























Nice reply Ralph,



Points of my confusion: you say, "All voluntary muscles fibers fatigue even Type I." I probably agree with the following caveats. I have tried to totally, w/ the same eccentric concentric resistance attempting to max resistance over both ROM's by varying body positions, fatigue all fibers at once -- cant be done -- there's always some resistance that can be moved or resisted?! When it seemed that slow twitch had finally had it -- some higher threshold force would manifest?! And so on -- with immense amounts (for me anyway) of pain accruing.



I seem to recall Mel saying pretty much what you mentioned about endurance athletes cycling fibers to maintain tension. I believe Mel also implied/said that higher threshold fibers "orchestrate", also much like various sections of an orchestra. Some where in my past I? had research that indicated this also -- especially the very lowest threshold at 90+ secs. And could never totally concentrically below 2-5% max!? My brother accidently lost my last 2 copies of the 1993? "Beyond 2001" but should have it on a computer file somewhere.



Regardless, to what extent slow twitch can be hypertrophied beyond a certain % has probably not been conclusively established, though for an hypertrophy athlete it is important.



You say "During high intensity work such as weight lifting maximum force is achieved through synchronous recruitment of as many muscle fibers as possible". I'm sure you meant this to be a somewhat general statement in that "pure" synchrony is only approached as total muscle reaches high percents of fatigue, as much damage often results as one approaches "involuntary", life threatening maximums.



And finally you say -- "During all out max rep ATP and CP are the primary source of energy. Depending on training state there is less than 20 seconds worth of ATP and CP available stored for instant energy, after that the ATP has to be replenished during recovery". -- Again, we need to be aware that "during all out max rep"s -- during initial fresh voluntary exertions estimates range from 65- 85% involuntary max or 85% of involuntary fibers at varying degrees of summation/rate coding and synchronicity (or some thing in between) are exerted.



I don't remember exactly to what extent highest threshold IIb'-a's are summated and/or synchronized but wrote recently --- MISPLACING THE SOURCE OF COURSE - but here it is



SYNCHRONIZATION TENSION/FORCE TOTAL MUSCLE. Total muscle tension force is partly a function of basically howmany fibers are recruited at NEARLY the same moment. This never happens all atonce at first because the tension force would actually tear the muscle tendonsfrom their moorings (unless the muscle is fatigued) --- QUOTE -- (I'm looking for the source now -- midnite).



"If you perform asub-maximal task long enough to induce fatigue, the loss of force will becompensated by increased recruitment synchronization and increased rate coding (AND SUMMATION) of the recruited fibers. If a fiber is creating a specific required tension andis at a frequency which induces it to create 75% of it's maximum for example,as it fatigues, the SPS frequency will increase to keep it at that tensionlevel. Eventually, rate coding (AND SYNCHRONIZATION) will be maximized and the fiber (ENTIRE MUSCLE) will not be ableto continue to display that tension level".



I would add that if you perform max voluntary TASK that only 1 will be able to be performed (unless you can suddenly tap into that involuntary reserve -- which one would think you could since there is no additional weight involved -- that is there are unused (maybe not enough for requisite tensions) -- then again a 100% max effort taking about 2.5 seconds concentric depletes an enormous amount of momentary tensions -- much of it neural.



Will have to google slow twitch hypertrophy.



Jerry Telle

Lakewood CO USA



-----Original Message-----

From: Ralph Giarnella <ragiarn@yahoo.com>

To: Supertraining <Supertraining@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Tue, Nov 6, 2012 11:28 am

Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.



The only muscle fibers that never fatigue are the heart muscles fibers. All voluntary muscles fibers fatigue even Type I.



The difference is that Type I fibers take longer to reach their limit. Mitochondrial density and capillary density are determining factors in how long it takes for voluntary muscle fibers to fatigue.



Type II fibers have significantly less mitochondria than Type I fibers. Specific endurance training will increase both mitochondrial density as well as capillary density in type I fibers.



During high intensity work such as weight lifting maximum force is achieved through synchronous recruitment of as many muscle fibers as possible.



The firing pattern of endurance athletes becomes asynchronous. During continuous contractions, some units are firing while others recover, providing a built in recovery period. The muscle fibers act some what like a circular relay race or a pace line in bicycle racing.. When one group tires another works while the first recovers and when second group tires a third takes over etc and this continues until it is the turn of the first group again.



The rapidity of fatigue also depends on what the primary source of energy is during the activity.



During all out max rep ATP and CP are the primary source of energy. Depending on training state there is less than 20 seconds worth of ATP and CP available stored for instant energy, after that the ATP has to be replenished during recovery.



Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct. USA



________________________________

From: Phil Caraher <pcaraher1@nc.rr.com>

To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, November 5, 2012 4:16 PM

Subject: RE: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.





It is my understanding the motor units in postural muscles will share the

burden so that no one unit is always active which would prevent fatigue and

maintain posture.



Phil Caraher, DPT, MS, CSCS, PES, CES

Physical Therapist

Chapel Hill, NC



-----Original Message-----

From: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Supertraining@yahoogroups.com]

On Behalf Of Giovanni Ciriani

Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 2:17 PM

To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.



I do not understand the concept of fatigueing a fiber to train it. Mt

understanding is that fibers adapt (train) because there is microdamage,

which probably can happen even without fatigue to occur. In addition I

thought that 100% type I fibers would be able to produce a certain force ad

infinitum, such as postural fibers. If that was not the case then one would

slump down on a desk after a few minutes because the muscles of the back

were fatigued.



Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA



On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 2:02 AM, <JRTELLE@aol.com> wrote:



> **

>

>

> Greetings all.

>

> I received this message from an obviously experienced trainer.

>

> Jerry:

>

> Iread in the summer issue of MILO that you determined that a Type 1

> slow twitchmuscle fiber required a time under tension of 90 to 240

> seconds to fatigue thatparticular fiber. From that I deduce that since

> a muscle--say a leg or ashoulder one isn't one-hundred percent fast or

> slow twitch, to adequatelyfatigue and build that muscle both types of

> fibers need to be exercised. Ifthis is so, then I can only see a

> couple of possibilities to attack the slowtwitch; lighter weight and

higher reps or super slow reps.

> Withsuper slow in order to reach the 90 second threshold would

> probably necessitatea lower weight as well. Am I barking up the wrong

> tree? If not, what are yoursuggestions for incorporating fatiguing

> both types of fibers in a singleworkout?

>

> Ithank you for your time and effort in responding to this request.

>

> I responded.

>

> Right tree, rightbark -- maybe,

>

> I havephilosophically fought with these slow twitchers forever. At one

> point I wasdoing drop sets starting with a IIb weight, then 2 - IIa

> drop sets, then superslow up - two 120+ seconds. SEEMED to work. This

> I termed "top down" training!Recent research seems to indicate that

> exertion should last 50 - 55 seconds(for type II's???) then cessation!

>

> The type onestheoretically via the "size" principle are worked the

> entire 55seconds also which is a pretty good stimulation -- maybe?

>

> Another that Ithink maybe better is to work the type II's on one day

> and 3 days later theI's. The ones protocol being starting with a 30%

> of 1 RM Slow moes at 4(to8)2(or more)40. that's 4240 or 4 down 2 at

> the isometric bottom getting a superstretch - 4 up - 0 at top

> isometric position. Here is 1

> protocol:

>

> 1. 6240 to failure

> 2. thenimmediately after failure 40X+0 the X+ being an explosive

> positive up and 4down and no stop at bottom. The fascinating thing

> being the explosive strengthleft after total slow moe failure. Should

> be able to get

> 2 maybe 3 xtra reps -very painful.

> 3. 1 drop set ofsame protocol.

> This should getyou to 90+ seconds which may be good enough? I have

> done drops to very lowloads -- so low that failure could not be

> attained - it would seem at these lowloads certain slow (or fast

> fibers) rest then contribute as the others nowrest??

>

> This I termed "bottomup" training.

>

> And finally I havetried Eccentric sets and drops to near total fiber

> failure at very low loads-- a very taxingtraining protocol which

> should be gradually built up to.

>

> I, somewhere, haveresearch on this matter which will try to find and send!

>

> Thanx for thequestion. It always helps me to write out my current

> beliefs as it clarifiessame and most often leads to new ideas.

>

> I should have added. When concentric failure is reached do slow moe

> bottom of movement -- end of eccentric, isometric, start of concentric

partials.

> Fiber tension is always greatest there (think tension-force

> phenomenon), lasts the longest as fatigue accumulates(my research and

> highly respected researchers Komi and Hakkinen from Finland) and is a

> great highest possible tension set extender not wasting valuable

> mental energy on uselessly low, detrimental or non existent fiber tensions

attempting full ROM movements.

> Do partials to complete failure that is less and less movement to zero

> -- but not max intensity (totally psyched out -- competition effort)!

>

> Jerry

>

> Any remarks? -- Negative remarks welcomed!

>

> Jerry Telle

> lakewood CO USA

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>

>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------



Modify/cancel your subscription at:



http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups



Sign all letters with full name & city of residence if you wish them to be

published!



Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fri Nov 9, 2012 12:16 am (PST) . Posted by:

"Phil Caraher" hefenweis

Giovanni,

I should have been clearer and elaborated more. My comment was specifically
in reference to postural muscles needed to maintain posture for example
sitting at a computer. You describe it as round robin, I describe it as
switching off. My copy of Enoka is older than yours and has slightly
different graphs. But the point is still made. I think we are in
agreement? I haven't read a post that disputes the concept? As far as Type
1 fiber's role in sports performance? It is another subject entirely as
other posts have stated. Although it hasn't been stated in its entirety
here, the force that a muscle can produce has what Zatsiorski describes as
central and peripheral components. Central (I think CNS) includes MU
recruitment, synchronization (as best it can be achieved) and rate coding.
The peripheral factor being physiological cross section of the muscle.
Ninety degrees to the grain so to speak.

I read an article title "The Optimal Training Load for the Development of
Muscular Power" authored by Kawamori and Haff. It states when the MU firing
frequency exceeds the level that is sufficient to achieve maximum force, the
further increase in firing frequency contributes to an increase in rate of
force development? This is possibly another factor that contributes to
force output at least in the time it is produced. I believe this would be
an argument in support of training with heavy loads vs lighter loads?

Phil Caraher, Chapel Hill, NC

From: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Supertraining@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Giovanni Ciriani
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2012 10:34 AM
To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.

Phil,
I think what you are referring to is recruitment level which, no matter
what the level of force developed is, will cause some fibers to be
recruited close to 100% and others (faster fibers) to be recruited at a
much lower percentage.

The fibers recruited at much lower level will alternate (in a so-to-speak
round-robin fashion). However, because of their metabolic characteristics,
slow-twitch fibers will be able to maintain their effort for a long time.
You can sort of understand it from the picture at this shortcut
http://bit.ly/Wv2uaD
which is taken from
Enoka R. *Neuromechanics of human movement*. 4. ed. Champaign IL [u.a.]:
Human Kinetics; 2008.

The graph is in two parts, and kind of involved. However, you can get the
gist that, as recruitment increases the number of muscle fibers involved
increases, as well as their rate-coding (frequency of the
neuro-muscular frequency of impulses). The random ripple in the graph
denotes the fact that, as some muscle fibers are activated others are
dropped, and therefore the increase is messy.

Interesting is the following example anybody can try (learned in an
electrical muscle stimulation workshop). You can hear the frequency at
which muscle fibers fire if you plug both of your ears with your fingers.
The low volume rumble you hear is the frequency at which the muscle fibers
of your arm are firing. Because the firing has some noise in it and is
discrete in nature, you can hear the varying pressure in your ear. Try to
increase the pressure exercised by the fingers and the frequency goes up.

Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA

On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 4:16 PM, Phil Caraher <pcaraher1@nc.rr.com
<mailto:pcaraher1%40nc.rr.com> > wrote:

> **
>
>
> It is my understanding the motor units in postural muscles will share the
> burden so that no one unit is always active which would prevent fatigue
and
> maintain posture.
>
> Phil Caraher, DPT, MS, CSCS, PES, CES
> Physical Therapist
> Chapel Hill, NC
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:Supertraining@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com> ]
> On Behalf Of Giovanni Ciriani
> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 2:17 PM
> To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com>

> Subject: Re: [Supertraining] Slow twitch hypertrophy.
>
> I do not understand the concept of fatigueing a fiber to train it. Mt
> understanding is that fibers adapt (train) because there is microdamage,
> which probably can happen even without fatigue to occur. In addition I
> thought that 100% type I fibers would be able to produce a certain force
ad
> infinitum, such as postural fibers. If that was not the case then one
would
> slump down on a desk after a few minutes because the muscles of the back
> were fatigued.
>
> Giovanni Ciriani - West Hartford, CT - USA
>
> On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 2:02 AM, <JRTELLE@aol.com
<mailto:JRTELLE%40aol.com> > wrote:
>
> > **
>
> >
> >
> > Greetings all.
> >
> > I received this message from an obviously experienced trainer.
> >
> > Jerry:
> >
> > Iread in the summer issue of MILO that you determined that a Type 1
> > slow twitchmuscle fiber required a time under tension of 90 to 240
> > seconds to fatigue thatparticular fiber. From that I deduce that since
> > a muscle--say a leg or ashoulder one isn't one-hundred percent fast or
> > slow twitch, to adequatelyfatigue and build that muscle both types of
> > fibers need to be exercised. Ifthis is so, then I can only see a
> > couple of possibilities to attack the slowtwitch; lighter weight and
> higher reps or super slow reps.
> > Withsuper slow in order to reach the 90 second threshold would
> > probably necessitatea lower weight as well. Am I barking up the wrong
> > tree? If not, what are yoursuggestions for incorporating fatiguing
> > both types of fibers in a singleworkout?
> >
> > Ithank you for your time and effort in responding to this request.
> >
> > I responded.
> >
> > Right tree, rightbark -- maybe,
> >
> > I havephilosophically fought with these slow twitchers forever. At one
> > point I wasdoing drop sets starting with a IIb weight, then 2 - IIa
> > drop sets, then superslow up - two 120+ seconds. SEEMED to work. This
> > I termed "top down" training!Recent research seems to indicate that
> > exertion should last 50 - 55 seconds(for type II's???) then cessation!
> >
> > The type onestheoretically via the "size" principle are worked the
> > entire 55seconds also which is a pretty good stimulation -- maybe?
> >
> > Another that Ithink maybe better is to work the type II's on one day
> > and 3 days later theI's. The ones protocol being starting with a 30%
> > of 1 RM Slow moes at 4(to8)2(or more)40. that's 4240 or 4 down 2 at
> > the isometric bottom getting a superstretch - 4 up - 0 at top
> > isometric position. Here is 1
> > protocol:
> >
> > 1. 6240 to failure
> > 2. thenimmediately after failure 40X+0 the X+ being an explosive
> > positive up and 4down and no stop at bottom. The fascinating thing
> > being the explosive strengthleft after total slow moe failure. Should
> > be able to get
> > 2 maybe 3 xtra reps -very painful.
> > 3. 1 drop set ofsame protocol.
> > This should getyou to 90+ seconds which may be good enough? I have
> > done drops to very lowloads -- so low that failure could not be
> > attained - it would seem at these lowloads certain slow (or fast
> > fibers) rest then contribute as the others nowrest??
> >
> > This I termed "bottomup" training.
> >
> > And finally I havetried Eccentric sets and drops to near total fiber
> > failure at very low loads-- a very taxingtraining protocol which
> > should be gradually built up to.
> >
> > I, somewhere, haveresearch on this matter which will try to find and
> send!
> >
> > Thanx for thequestion. It always helps me to write out my current
> > beliefs as it clarifiessame and most often leads to new ideas.
> >
> > I should have added. When concentric failure is reached do slow moe
> > bottom of movement -- end of eccentric, isometric, start of concentric
> partials.
> > Fiber tension is always greatest there (think tension-force
> > phenomenon), lasts the longest as fatigue accumulates(my research and
> > highly respected researchers Komi and Hakkinen from Finland) and is a
> > great highest possible tension set extender not wasting valuable
> > mental energy on uselessly low, detrimental or non existent fiber
> tensions
> attempting full ROM movements.
> > Do partials to complete failure that is less and less movement to zero
> > -- but not max intensity (totally psyched out -- competition effort)!
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> > Any remarks? -- Negative remarks welcomed!
> >
> > Jerry Telle
> > lakewood CO USA
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> Modify/cancel your subscription at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
> Sign all letters with full name & city of residence if you wish them to be
> published!
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fri Nov 9, 2012 12:16 am (PST) . Posted by:

"sebascoles" sebascoles


For an active middle-aged individual (one that works during the day and exercise two or three times a week) who wants to reduce some body fat and is concerning about her weight because of some insulin resistance that needs metformin, what do you think is more important to achieve some body fat loss, an exercise program or dieting (better nutritional habit reducing the excess of calorie intake)? Or is a combination of both?
I think that just better nutritional habit (and keeping the same level of activity) will work for her or for any other individual who wants or need to lose some body fat but I more frequently find that the best way is a combination of dieting and an exercise program (that is what research more frequently shows).

May be my reasoning is just theoric and with no practical aplication, but I think that it could be that reducing the excess of calorie intake by itself can work to reduce some body fat and that exercise is important to be part of the plan because of other benefit, like:

*keeping muscle mass and avoid it loss
*keeping muscle strenght and resistance
*avoiding the loss of flexibility
*keeping bone mass
*keeping the musculoskeletel system active and functional
*improving glucose tolerance

Thanks!

Sebastián Scoles
Buenos Aires, Argentina

GROUP FOOTER MESSAGE
Modify/cancel your subscription at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups

Sign all letters with full name & city of residence if you
wish them to be published!